letmesleep

I think your so caught up in trying to prove that I'm the ignorant one that you are failing to read my posts. I stated that YOU and DUST have been arguing the point in which you quoted. I re-read my statement and realize that I used a period rather than a comma, but YOUR argument to me last nite was that I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON IN THEIR HEAD, in a nut shell, again as long as I understood YOU and DUST correctly. I conceded to you the selfish argument following your post showing me that it makes no sense when dealing with irrational people, sick people. So please try reading what I wrote before you jump up on YOUR high horse and chastise me.

I'm rural as well, but I still don't get the liability issue here. I will state that our MDs will typically not stop if they see us on scene, and will gladly step aside to allow us to do our jobs here. We're talking about a MVC, so with that statement I'll back it up with the Docs not having working knowledge of our tools of the trade, nor the protective equipment needed to do our job. Sounds like it could be two different worlds, but I'm just not getting it.

Doc, as others have stated, how do you know thats what his reason was? It sounds as if the system failed him, it sounds as if his country failed him. I would agree that there was more going on with your friends father than I and most of us here could ever begin to read about, let alone try to understand. I would like to think that a father/ husband would go to any extreme to protect his family, but how do we really know why he committed this act? Even a letter wouldn't answer that for us, if I understood what Mike and Dust are saying. We just don't know or understand what is actually going through their head at the time they take their own life.

Of course I'm not the only one who has ever had to deal with it, and your right I'll never know or understand why, but the anger is there because of the kids left behind. I don't care why anymore, its done and over with, as far as the act is concerned, but that doesn't change the fact that in either case there are kids that no longer have their father because of a choice he made. Has nothing to do with me? Maybe their reasons, but the clean up, and continuing care for their children has much to do with me, and yes, by choice. I never questioned if you had ever delt with this Mike, and it looks as tho each of have and are dealing with it in our own ways. Thanks for the good thought!

Mike, your right, my argument makes no damn sense at all, and maybe it is a kneejerk emotional opinion on my behalf. The unfortunate thing here is that I still feel as though it is selfish, being on the receiving end of suicide. It has been many years for both instances and the anger remains as strong as the day they happened.

How is that even comparable? Cancer is cancer, you may choose things in your life that lead to cancer, but how is it that anyone can choose to have cancer, or any other disease out there, for that matter? What a ridiculous statement. QUOTE: Suicide is a major, preventable public health problem. In 2004, it was the eleventh leading cause of death in the U.S., accounting for 32,439 deaths.1 The overall rate was 10.9 suicide deaths per 100,000 people.1 An estimated eight to 25 attempted suicides occur per every suicide death. That was an interesting article Mike, and I will agree with the fact that there is NO way to rationalize with an unrational person, which is why I stated in the rest of that statement that: I will give those who consider it, an ear to bend, and talk to them while on the way to get them help, because in my mind there is no rational thought behind suicide, and they need help Suicide is self-induced, period. It is a choice that one person makes to end mental suffering. The issue I have with this is simple, it is selfish due to the fact that the suffering may end for one, but only begins for others in their life. How is that statement wrong Dust, Mike? Please tell me how it is that suicide is an unselfish act, is there any instance out there that suicide is the answer, and please don't bother with assisted death due to illness. The topic is suicide.

As I stated Mike, your thoughts about me and this issue are of no concern to me. I responded to the thread, you responded to the statements I have made. Never did I state that I am morally above anyone. I stated that I may come off as a little harsh, and that I feel as if it is a selfish way to handle pressure. If you feel the need to make me out to be the "holly than thou" asshole that your hinting around at, thats on you, and matters nothing to me. I stated in my original post that all of this is based on MY OPINION, and followed it up with acknowledgment of being in this state of mind at one time, in which, I developed this OPINION. I also admitted that the state of mind maybe beyond my understanding. With that said: Teach me something new about the topic Mike. Instead, as you have done once before you choose to attack me with your majestic wisdom instead of adding to the thread.

Actually Dust, I have been there once, and my opinion on the subject is from a first hand account, however, when I realized that it was going effect everybody in my life negatively and that I would be the only one relieved of any suffering, I was strong enough to find an alternate solution to the problem. I know not all are able to do this themselves and thats when help should be sought, but those that are able to follow through with ending their lives are selfish, and have only thought of themselves.

john51071, what is your thought on the issue? I may come off pretty heartless, and sound uncaring about this, but suicide in my opinion is very selfish. The fact that WE as medical providers feel that this is a way to solve our own problems makes this beyond selfish. It seems as though there have been many threads on the topic of suicide lately, and tons of opinions about how it is their (those who attempt and/or successful) choice. Suicide is the taking of one's own life, so the argument that it is their choice is really moot, otherwise it would be called something like, umm...I don't know, maybe HOMICIDE? Suicide is a "way out" for those who take and make that decision, the easy way out for themselves. There is no consideration for the family and friends left behind to deal with the aftermath. I will give those who consider it, an ear to bend, and talk to them while on the way to get them help, because in my mind there is no rational thought behind suicide, and they need help, but how is it that we are sympathetic for those who succeed? Save the pity for the family that has to deal with the lack of closer they are now faced with. John, I have known two co-workers in the past 15 years who have committed this act, two whom I felt would have come to the aid of a friend before ending their lives, two who felt there was never any excuse for suicide. I realize that there is such a state of mind that these people have gotten to, to commit such a long term answer to a short term problem. The psyche behind this state of mind may be beyond my understanding, but to preform such an act with no consideration of anyone else is unforgivable to me. I read in another thread somebody wrote that we should just keep our opinions to ourselves if we have never faced it first hand. That to me is just another selfish thought of someone who may have thought about suicide themselves, and proves to me that there is NO consideration for anybody, but YOU.

Again, I am not from this area, but the real problem with all of this is that if it is a situation where I or you need a MD on scene, typically we won't have or take the time to check credentials, get paperwork signed as toutdoors talked about, so on and so forth. Short of the Pt being trapped, and needing surgical extrication, I'm not going to waste the time involved in all the CYA crap needed to put this "person" (because thats all they are until proven otherwise) in to play.

fortsmithman, congrats on your first "clinical save" of a thread here in EMTcity, first of all! I am curious how turning away a MD is considered a liability issue? I am also wondering how it is that you would lose your EMS licensing, as well? I see the Canadian flag on your avatar, so it may be that I am just not familiar with the Canadian laws, but I just don't understand how this could be, please help me with this issue. I started to read this thread, and then realized it was not only J-4, but rotting away in the grave. I then read the last few posts here and it struck me kinda funny, and this is why I responded. With that said, NEVER, NEVER (for me) stop if their is any emergency personnel on the scene, NEVER. If it looks absolutely nasty as hell I would maybe stop, but anything outside of the basics is all that I could do considering I don't even carry gloves off-duty. Once the appropriate personnel arrives, I would give a report and I am out. I can safely say that I have only ever stoped 1 time, and was ONLY because I saw the accident happen. As far as turning away help, I do it ALL the time, I don't care who you are, or what you are. I give the offering party a very polite thank you, and assure them that the scene is under control. I have NEVER had a complaint called in on me for this action, but I have had people removed as well, including a self proclaiming RN (she never produced any ID stating she was a RN), following her thank you. The reason I do this is to maintain safety on the scene, Unless you work for the district handling the emergency, you become a liability. By-standers that are being used to help (professional or not) run the risk of becoming Pts, causing the crowd of on-lookers to get wound up, or harming a Pt no matter what the intention is. You may not know who these people are, or what their qualifications may be, but by putting them in the mix, you could be handing your life to them. Does that make anybody feel safe?

I have been here (EMTcity) for a short time compared to some, but it doesn't take long to realize that there are those of us here that are pissed about the way our career is run, or lack there of. We as a whole are irritated with the lack of recognition, the lack of trust from our med directions, lack of pay and benefits, so on and so forth. It doesn't take much time searching thru the forums of EMTcity to notice the on going pain that we all suffer while doing this job called EMS. We come here for different reasons, but with a common goal, and that is to try to make change. If you look around the job markets, how often do you see other "professionals" push for change within their field? I'm not talking about those in medicine, because WE are in medicine. So, what is it? What is it that makes us get up every morning, afternoon, evening and go to work? What is it that keeps us going in this job (our own little hell) when we demand so much change? What is it that makes us care? What is it that keeps us here (in EMS) for 10,20,30+ years? What is it (for those with 10+years in) that has ahold of you, and keeps you going when you see a decline in EMS instead of things getting better? We go to work at our various times of the day, work ungodly amounts of hours in hellish type environments, care for those people that we serve, take home the little ass paycheck, get on the computer and post messages to each other about how the job could be better. Think about it, how often do we tell newbies how wonderful the job is? How many times have you said to someone thinking about getting in to this profession that the pay and benefits are great and push them in to the next open EMT class? Sure we help each other out once they are in, but do we say to our brothers and sisters that "EMS is the place to be"? So my question is, WHAT IS IT..............................?

Isn't this when education and a good understanding for the job we do comes in to play? Isn't CPR a skill that we need to preform to the best of our ability, but also one that we should make a good critical, clinical decision about? We don't give every Pt that gets an IV, a fluid challenge, we don't blast every Pt on O2 with 15lpm via NRB, why? Would it be because we make these decisions constantly about each Pt on an individual basis, and with the education/ training we have? To throw out a generalized statement such as stopping CPR is, in my opinion, plain uneducated. CPR is a skill and that skill needs to take place after a good physical exam of the Pt. If said Pt is in such a state that there is no way of changing there current status then a decision needs to be made at that point to stop, but I would have to agree that making this decision prior to making Pt contact is ridiculous at best. As professionals we do take in to consideration the stats provided by the AHA, because they are the "recognized authority" on the issue, and do dictate how and when we (in the field) preform CPR. They have been impowered by us and the rest of the medical community to do the research and make the changes as we know them. Do I always agree with their decisions? No, but we use their "protocols for working arrests, because they set the standards, and our medical direction typically follows their "cookbook" thought processes on how CPR is done.

Interesting, almost 15hrs without any rebuttal or support to this post. 15hrs with nothing left to say, that says a lot. Thanks for saying what everybody didn't want to believe Dust. Your post is very insightful and profound, to say the very least.

I have to agree with Wendy, Admin, I did state in the OP that has since been locked, that I would not challenge you on your decision, and I WILL NOT begin now, apologies if you feel I might be now. Wendy isn't asking for anything more than a honest, professional, curtious, adult conversation here, and I DO challenge all of us to meet the guidelines to find the root cause of this issue. I also would like to apologize for my absence yesterday in the "locked" thread, the fiancee was injured on the job, and needed to be cared for here at home. She is fine, and currently in a chemically induced coma on the couch recovering, and all other players are unharmed. What I saw in the other thread initially was numerous concerns about the money issues. Speaking for myself, when I put myself through medic school I had to maintain a full-time job and a family as well. I worked for a private company at the time, and educational benefits were non-existent. Putting an EMT through school was in their mind, not a good investment because it would eventually increase their overhead as more would go back to school, then down the road we would all expect to be paid as medics....DUH! This is what the point is, isn't it? How do we solve this issue? At this point, we have to find the means, as adults, to accomplish our goals of higher education, grants, student loans, educational benefits, the money is out there, and with research it can be found. OK, OK, I know your looking at your screen and saying" letmesleep, your nuts!", but think about it, isn't "climbing the wall " what we do as professionals? If you have a pt who needs to have an airway, but is wrapped up in that mess that used to a car, do we throw our hands in the air and say "I quit, until he is laid out supine, I can't help him"? NO, we figure it out. I am not going to tell people how to live their home lives, but we do what we have too, to survive. In a perfect world I would love to see a complete restructuring of the medical field in regards to "rank" (for lack of a better term). The unfortunate side of this is that we have (in medicine) way to many areas of expertise that need to be addressed. With that said, we need as EMS providers to push EMTs and EMT-Is to complete their education to at least the medic level, if not past that. We need to stop the lower levels from making that cert/ license a career choice. How do we do this? Do we put a time limit on it? Do we completely do away with these levels and make their classes an ongoing program towards the medic education? Wendy, you had some (what I felt) awesome insight in the other thread, as to how to maybe educate the "lower levels" (again for a lack of a better term). Dust you put out another thread talking about the "monkey" experiment. We all stop for a second and read, ask for clarification, and try to understand what is being said, on both ends. As medics, it is our job to educate (*slaps us medics), but to the rest of the providers here, it is not our place to hold your hand (*slaps the EMTs and EMT-Is). I was told in my EMT class, many years ago......"this is adult education, I (my instructor) will provide you with the information, it is up to you to learn it". Being comfortable having your hands tied as a medical provider and Pt advocate has to be the last thing any of us would ever want, so why do we do it?

I won't be handing that award out, otherwise you may end up with +5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 points or so

Just thought it was an interesting point of view, even with the wrong math.

Can somebody please help me here. Is it me or does this change the original question from one based on medicine without any real stats to back it up, to one of finance? As a medic, only a medic, made EMS my career as a medic, you just threw your entire thread down the drain with this one single post. Do we all want to be compensated for the jobs we do? Hell yes, but now the basis for your argument is that we should stop doing CPR solely based off of a monetary issue. Until we see the money we should stop CPR? How can you disregard the opinions of the RNs (who by the way might actually still be working the streets) with such malice? Maybe I'm reading way to far into this post, but it seems that your now saying that Until we start seeing better pay and benefits we should start limiting the life-saving skills that is the basis for our entire existence as medics.

Is it me, or is there a wave of angry posters floating around that have difficulties expressing their opinions in a calm professional manner? hmmmm.....

Where are you?

Taking the question for face value, I would have to say this is got to be the most profound answer given thus far. Well written Firedoc.....................

I can only speak on the Missouri "PCR" called a MARF or MARS (Missouri Ambulance Reporting Form or Sheet). This issue is one of my BIGGEST gripes in regards to any type of administration. Your PCR is YOUR documentation of a Pt within YOUR care and should be written the way YOU feel comfortable. If you choose to fill out 14 pages of continuation forms to document your Pt care with a single Pt, or write 1 sentence it is up to you. I know that a lot hinges on the PCR, but in all reality it is YOU that is going to answer for what is written. Everything you write can support you and harm you, but that should and is YOUR decision, not your administrators. end rant.........................

I see your point, but wouldn't you agree that this is the wrong way to practice medicine? Would it NOT be a safer (for the Pt) practice to be more concerned with how you can negatively change someone's life instead of how much it may cost you later? The fear should be doing harm to your Pt, not how they are going to take control of your life in the next year, thus lawsuits being fall out of poor Pt care.

Damn the "E" button......damn! Guess Dan Quail and have a common bond........................damn!

Ok folks, we have discussed this NUMEROUS times here in the city, and it is quite obvious that we have a few that feel as if us medics are "Paragods". So I thought I'd start a thread for all of you who feel this way, and place it under the "Knowledge Base" forum to teach us a little about yourself as EMTs and EMT-Is. Obviously we medics have NO real knowledge about your worth in the field, so here is your chance to speak out. Tell us your thoughts on the subject. Admin, If this is wrong in any way shape or form feel free without any issues from me (the OP) to edit this as you see fit, please! I do realize this has been talked about before, but I'm not real sure we have ever tried to take this approach. Is this stirring the pot? It very well may, but can it not be calm and informative to all of us to hear (uninterrupted) how these levels feel, so we can maybe improve things a little? To all of my fellow "paragods" out there such as AK, Dust, Ruff, myself and lets throw in the RNs and RRTs as well Rid, Vent. Well you know who you are, the regulars. Lets stay out of this for a bit and see where it takes us, your choice of course because it isn't up to me to control any of you. Also no offense to those I may have left off my list. Why do you as EMTs and EMT-Is get upset (pissed) when the medics here "bash" (even tho I see it as pushing you to continue your education) you? Why is it that when we say we don't need you in our truck you get angry? Why have you decided to stay at the level your at? Most importantly, Why do we still believe that EMTs save medics? What are your thoughts?