Forcing Entry to Get to Paitents

[AnthonyM83]

Does anyone know legal statutes, either California, federal, or common law on forcing entry into private homes to get to patients? Does it matter that it's not the patient who called, rather a concerned friend.

Every few weeks we get calls either from those Medical Alert electronic alarms or neighbors saying they haven't seen little old lady come out of the house in a long time or a friend calls in a suicidal friend elsewhere. Most of the time we're able to find an open door or window...every now and then we can't. FD ends up either jimmying or donkey kicking the front door in.

Is this always legal? Does it fall under implied consent? Or are there other legal provisions surrounding it?

[brentoli]

Every few weeks we get calls either from those Medical Alert electronic alarms or neighbors saying they haven't seen little old lady come out of the house in a long time or a friend calls in a suicidal friend elsewhere. Most of the time we're able to find an open door or window...every now and then we can't. FD ends up either jimmying or donkey kicking the front door in.

Is this always legal? Does it fall under implied consent? Or are there other legal provisions surrounding it?

In this situation, our dispatch would send a police unit to the scene. Thats just doing a welfare check, and no need for EMS to even be involved. Your dispatch needs to look at their protocols a little bit better, they may need worked on. Those are actualy some dangerous situations, where PD should be the ones to check on. A suicidal person, if they want to do it, will and will take you with them if they have to. The little old lady could be DRT, and it could be a possible crime scene.

[katbemeEMT-B]

I agree with Brent. Our PD takes care of welfare checks and with then call us if we're needed. I do not believe you can legally gain entry unless the individual themselves called, but don't take my word on that. I would remind you dispatch that EMS stands for emergency medical services and should be used only if there is an emergency. Checking on the status of a little old lady does not qualify as an emergency unless said little old lady is known to be having some sort of medical dilemma.

[brentoli]

Addendum: If it is an active suicidal with means to do it or has done it, we will put a ambulance on standby in the area usualy 1/2 to a mile away.

[FredG]

If it's a person with a known or reported medical condition, we will be dispatched simultaneous with PD and if there's no reported medical condition, PD responds first and we get called for a standby.

For medic alert calls, our dispatch has a record of which neighbor or relative has a set of keys, if necessary.

[Just Plain Ruff]

this falls under local jurisdiction and nothing else. Who is allowed to force entry.

Usually in every county I've ever worked in the onus has fallen on the police to determine if forced entry is appropriate and allowed.

I had a call on a short of breath patient.

On our arrival the house was dark and closed up.

the police department requested for dispatch to call back and we heard nothing, no rings of the phone or what not.

We finally after 45 minutes of looking for a way in, found a neighbor who wasn't upset at us waking them at 330 am and we got a key.

Upon entry we found this 63 year old woman in respiratory and quickly thereafter - cardiac arrest.

We didn't get her back.

I wrestled with the thoughts of if the cops had been more proactive and all those thoughts since I was the knight in shining brand new paramedic armor and could save anyone.

Needless to say she died, I was not happy that we didn't get in earlier but I now see the police officers point of view is that house was dark, no rings were heard when we dialed the call back number and it was late late at night. they were not completely sure that someone was in the house but in the end there was a dying lady in the house and the entire system failed her.

A few changes were made that would allow more easier entry if needed but there are checks and balances to these procedures that have to be followed.

So to make a long post short (Too late), it's up to the law enforcement in the counties where I've worked and I can almost bet my next paycheck that it is up to your police agencies where you work to allow forced entry.

I don't want that liability that they have when they break a door down. That's not my job.

[Richard B the EMT]

New York City EMS, pre FDNY merger, had a response to a "Diffbr", a difficulty breathing, that was supposed to be asthma related. No one answered the door. The BLS ambulance crew had the dispatcher call back, heard the phone ring in the apartment, and heard the dispatcher leave a message. The upshot was the patient had probably left prior to EMS arrival.

18 hours later, there was another call to 9-1-1, from a family member with a key. The patient had been so far gone with the asthma, the crew had been unable to hear him struggling to get to the door, and the family member had found him on the floor, dead.

There was a lawsuit for EMS having "allowed" the death. I don't recall the lawsuit outcome.

New policy implemented: If no response at the door, crew requests "additional resources for access". PD will respond, FD if available (or PD Rescue) to "take" the door". PD will make entry to determine if there is anybody home, and an officer will remain on the scene to "secure" it, until repair can be made on the door.

If a patient is found, as described, the crew will take the patient.

I always find it interesting that we have had so many concerned family members at the door without a key, FD using fire ax and 10 pound sledgehammer, pounding to force the door, and just as they open it, the person we are all there for, suddenly shows up at the door, confused as to what is happening, from a "deep sleep".

How the hell deep is that sleep that they don't hear 2 EMTs, 2 Paramedics, an EMS Lieutenant, 4 LEOs, their sargent, and a 5 man FD crew hammering the hell out of the door, as everyone else on the floor comes to their doors to find out what the commotion is, for 10 minutes?

[Just Plain Ruff]

the reason they didn't hear it was the alcohol, the vicodin and the sleeping pills they took prior to going to bed.

[AnthonyM83]

PD doesn't respond to medical welfare checks in this area (they did in my home area), unless there's cause in the call for possible LE issue, such as suicide attempt. For suicides, we usually only enter without PD if call comes out as an overdose by dispatch. If it comes out as suicide attempt, we wait for PD.

I'd have to assume it's implied consent, because I don't know any laws, local or otherwise. Even if PD arrived, I don't know what separate law would protect them (other than implied consent) if it's call for little old lady with medical problem that hasn't been seen in awhile.

As the ambulance, we always wait for FD (additional 7 people) before trying to gain entry, either way.

[brentoli]

PD doesn't respond to medical welfare checks in this area (they did in my home area), unless there's cause in the call for possible LE issue, such as suicide attempt. For suicides, we usually only enter without PD if call comes out as an overdose by dispatch. If it comes out as suicide attempt, we wait for PD.

Start asking for them everytime. Annoy the piss out of them.