Compare your pay

[WANTYNU]

Under the title of the more you know the more power you have, I present the following evidence:

Perspective, it takes two years of school to get a JD (jurors doctorate) law degree...

OK so how much is a lawyer worth?

Fresh from the Wall Street Journal (WSJ).

I direct your attention to the last sentence of the third paragraph.

Lawyers Gear Up Grand New Fees Hourly Rates Increasingly Hit $1,000,

Breaching a Level Once Seen as Taboo

By NATHAN KOPPEL

August 22, 2007; Page B1

The hourly rates of the country's top lawyers are increasingly coming with something new -- a comma.

A few attorneys crossed into $1,000-per-hour billing before this year, but recent moves to the four-figure mark in New York, which sets trends for legal markets around the country, are seen as a significant turning point.

On Sept. 1, New York's Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP will raise its top rate to more than $1,000 from $950. Firm partner Barry Ostrager, a litigator, says he will be one of the firm's thousand-dollar billers, along with private-equity specialist Richard Beattie and antitrust lawyer Kevin Arquit. The top biller at New York's Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP hit $1,000 per hour earlier this year. At Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP, also of New York, bankruptcy attorney Brad Scheler, now at $995 per hour, will likely soon charge $1,000.

At large firms, billable rates have climbed steadily over the years, since 2000 rising an average of 6% to 7% annually, according to the law-firm group of Citi Private Bank, a unit of Citigroup Inc. But for some time, the highest-billing partners at top big-city firms have hovered in the mid-to-high $900 range, hesitant to cross the four-figure threshold. "We have viewed $1,000 an hour as a possible vomit point for clients," says a partner at a New York firm. [b]"Frankly, it's a little hard to think about anyone who doesn't save lives being worth this much money,"[/b] says David Boies, one of the nation's best-known trial lawyers, at the Armonk, N.Y., office of Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP.

A select group of attorneys began billing at that rate before this year, such as Stephen Susman, a founding partner of a Houston firm who has tried big-ticket cases around the country, and Benjamin Civiletti, a former U.S. Attorney General under President Carter and a senior partner at Washington, D.C-based Venable LLP. And in London, top attorneys bill at rates that, when converted, can hit almost $1,500 an hour.

As a critical mass develops around fees of $1,000 an hour in New York, though, more firms may feel comfortable going to that level and beyond. "One-thousand dollars per hour has symbolic significance," says Robert Rosenberg, a Latham & Watkins LLP partner who bills $925 an hour. "But like the year 2000, it's just a number."

Yet, many attorneys are still reluctant to charge $1,000 an hour. "There is a perception issue between $1,050 and $950," says Hugh Ray, a partner at Andrews Kurth LLP in Houston. "At some point, you look bad if you go too high." Mr. Boies says psychology in part has held him back from charging more than $880 per hour, noting, "When I started practicing law in 1966, my billing rate was considerably under $100."

Law firms also derive comfort from running with the pack. "We prefer not to be market leaders when it comes to rates," says J. Gregory Milmoe, a bankruptcy attorney at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP in New York. Mr. Milmoe says in September his hourly rate will climb to $950.

Firms' hesitation to breach the $1,000 mark shows that legal services aren't unlike other high-end products that sell at "just under" prices, like the $19,900 car, says Eric Anderson, a marketing professor at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management. "The sellers are worried that they will be perceived as extremely expensive."

Some clients' reactions bear that out. Brackett Denniston III, the general counsel of General Electric Co., says the company has paid $1,000 per hour for "specialized" legal advice. Still, "that's a line we'd rather not see crossed," Mr. Denniston says. "A thousand dollars per hour is emblematic of the high cost of major law firms," he says. "More than rates, my greater concern is the overall inflation level" in legal costs.

Thomas Sager, assistant general counsel of DuPont Co., says he recently balked when a New York lawyer cited $1,000 as his hourly rate. Instead, Mr. Sager says, he agreed to pay the attorney a flat monthly fee. "One-thousand dollars may be someone's choke point, but mine is actually a lot lower," he says.

Still, some lawyers are confident they're worth $1,000 per hour, and that now's the time to break the barrier. "I haven't personally experienced resistance to my billing rates," Mr. Ostrager says. "The legal marketplace is very sophisticated."

Law firms say the boosts aren't just about lining partners' pockets. They're partly a response to booming costs, which in recent years have included skyrocketing associate salaries -- first-year lawyers in many firms make $160,000 a year -- and expenses associated with geographic expansion.

While it's hard to raise prices on standard legal work, for matters such as bet-the-company deals, intricate patent disputes, huge bankruptcies or complex antitrust litigation, firms often feel they can raise fees for name-brand partners without upsetting clients.

Indeed, clients are often most cost-conscious about junior attorneys, believing they provide less value-per-dollar than senior counsel. Considering a major-league baseball player can make the equivalent of $15,000 per hour, "$1,000 for very seasoned lawyers who can solve complex problems doesn't seem to be inappropriate," says Mike Dillon, the general counsel of Sun Microsystems Inc.

Hourly rates, of course, tell just part of the fee story. Firms occasionally discount their stated rates for top clients. And companies sometimes prefer to pay their lawyers a flat fee for each case or deal, believing it encourages more efficiency than billing by the hour.

Plaintiffs trial lawyers often bill on a contingency-fee basis, earning a share of a settlement or verdict -- an amount that can dwarf top rates. "It represents an opportunity cost when I am working by the hour," says Mr. Susman, who last year raised his hourly fee to $1,100. He did it in part, he says, "to discourage anyone hiring me on that basis."

[vs-eh?]

Perspective, it takes two years of school to get a JD (jurors doctorate) law degree...

Ya, two years postgrad...

You are looking at likely 6 years post-secondary education, plus one or more professional graduate examinations/licenses...

I'm not saying that lawyers aren't necessarily a dime a dozen, but with 6+ years of invested education they aren't exactly in the same ball park in comparison with EMS. If that is what you were looking at...

I'm pretty sure that they are referring to physicians in your highlighted sentence, not a 120 hour EMT or 6 month paramedic...

[Dustdevil]

I'm pretty sure that they are referring to physicians in your highlighted sentence, not a 120 hour EMT or 6 month paramedic...

I thought for sure they were talking about firemonkeys.

But yeah, not a chance they are talking about ambulance drivers.

[WANTYNU]

Ya, two years postgrad...

You are looking at likely 6 years post-secondary education, plus one or more professional graduate examinations/licenses...

I'm not saying that lawyers aren't necessarily a dime a dozen, but with 6+ years of invested education they aren't exactly in the same ball park in comparison with EMS. If that is what you were looking at...

I'm pretty sure that they are referring to physicians in your highlighted sentence, not a 120 hour EMT or 6 month paramedic...

Ya, your right of course, but keep in mind a LOT of EMS folks do have a 4 year degree, that’s where I was going with the two years.

Of course if you wish to compare the top of the medical food chain, then you have at least 7 years before you can start your specialty and 2 to 4 years after that before you can “practice” (or around ten years before you start to make any "real" money.

On a side note here in NY you have to be an EMT first (aprox 200 hrs training) then to become a medic takes a year, with about 1600 - 1800 hours of class and clinical time combined. for a total of almost 2000 hours (1 working year).

Why is that only worth 1/50 (or 2 cents for every dollar) of these other professions?

Where I was going with this post, is how little we get paid and how low we are on the ladder, doing what cannot be called trivial work.

We are undervalued, I don't think anyone would argue that point,

But why?

Where does the value point get defined, is it us? or the public?

Just stirring the pot some on this as we should be thinking about why we must work two to three jobs to get by....

[Dustdevil]

On a side note here in NY you have to be an EMT first (aprox 200 hrs training) then to become a medic takes a year, with about 1600 - 1800 hours of class and clinical time combined. for a total of almost 2000 hours (1 working year).

You're kidding, right? A year of night school that is, as JP says, "so easy a caveman could do it," and you're expecting more money for that? A prospective medic should have more than twice that amount of school before he even sees the inside of an ambulance.

And, of course, damn few attorneys are getting that $1000 an hour fee. Remember, this is news because it is unusual. If it were the norm for attorney fees, it would not be news.

[pacman]

There is so much more to it that meets the eye....

Lawyers charge their fees with accordance to the reputation they and their law firms have in winning cases. A lawyer's quality and experience could mean the difference between going to jail for life or freedom ( isn't this, in essence, saving a life?). They can also be the turning point for big money cases.

Lawyers typically go through six years of competitive schooling. They usually obtain a Bachelor's degree first while maintaining a good grade point average, take the LSATs ( the entrance exam to law school), and apply for very competitive positions into law schools. Their education costs could also sum up to hundred of thousands of dollars.

Lawyers are also master researchers and are expected to know endless case rulings in order to serve their clients. The discovery process could also take months, if not years to get completed. I know all this because I use to work with lawyers.

You don't even need a high school diploma to become an EMT-B. I know this because I've seen it. Anybody, and I mean ANYBODY, can become an EMT-B with minimal studying. I've seen 16 year olds riding on ambulances who don't even know the basics of algebra. Personally, I took my course in about 7 weeks and then took the test and passed it. Boom, I'm an EMT-B and can "save lives".....or at least thats what I thought.

ALS, for some areas is not much different. You can become a paramedic without even obtaining an Associate's degree. This baffles me! We have individuals pushing drugs without even having some sort of post-secondary diploma. Granted, their training enables them to perform truly life saving techniques which results in them to make more money than unskilled labor jobs. Remember, other people in the workforce don't make as much.

EMS is a flooded market with a high turnover rate. Its in desperate need for educated individuals with a PROFESSIONAL attitude. However, as long as entrance requirements are minimal for entering EMS, we will always be the victims of supply and demand. Too many EMTs who all want to volunteer, forcing the paid guys to get three separate jobs just to get by.

Careerwise, until things change, EMS is a dead end career for most. I love my job, I really do. I just don't see myself paying a mortgage, supporting my family, and helping my kids out through college with it. Eventually, I'll have to hang up my boots too.....

[EMS Solutions]

Where is my motivation to go to school for an EMS career? Get my BA, BS etc. and then get paid $12-$22 per hour.

There has to be some incentive other than "helping my fellow man" for EMS to grow and be the job it can and was meant to be.

As long there are volunteers willing to do my paid job, the salary/beneifts wont improve and people will continue to take the shortest route available to obtain the paramedic title and get that $12 per hour.

In addition,where am I finding all this time to get my masters when I am so busy getting my CEU's to maintain my current certification, working a second job and trying to spend some time with my family and fix my house?

I look at salaries nationwide and see the dogs wages we are getting paid for a job description that runs 3 pages and puts much more responsibility on the employee that a $12 per hour payscale should be allowed, never mind expected to do.

I dont care about lawyers, doctors, nurses, garbage men or ditch diggers.

We need to stop this hypothetical ranting and start taking steps to change EMS from a stepping stone job to PD or Fire and into a professional career that is known and respected by the public. With pay and benefits meeting the job description and responsibilities.

Education is key, but there has to be an incentive for people to get that education.

$12 just wont do it.

[Ridryder 911]

Education is key, but there has to be an incentive for people to get that education. $12 just wont do it.

Most Paramedics around here, would love to see $12 an hour!

I agree education is the key, yet supply & demand goes on with the admission(s) to the education area. Just like nursing, physicians, there is never a "set" amount of number of admissions. It is usually based upon the demand and request by local area. Professionals are smart not to "flood" the market, and lower the salary range and demand.

Whenever, we start requiring EMS instructors to be EMS Educators with a formal degree, and requiring the minimum to have an associate degree before job entry level, then and only then we have a legitimate gripe.

R/r 911

[WANTYNU]

You're kidding, right? A year of night school that is, as JP says, "so easy a caveman could do it," and you're expecting more money for that? A prospective medic should have more than twice that amount of school before he even sees the inside of an ambulance.

And, of course, damn few attorneys are getting that $1000 an hour fee. Remember, this is news because it is unusual. If it were the norm for attorney fees, it would not be news.

Dust your talking theoretically right? Because we both know that the standards around the country vary but are not even close to what you propose.

(I know how you feel about NY, but even so… I’m an NREMT-P which I hope we can agree is a stick in the sand as for program difficultly benchmarks). From what I understand New York is somewhere near the more difficult end, I took both the NY State and National written tests and IMHO they weren’t that different, and I took only one skills practical for both.

Granted, the course I was in prepared us for both but still it wasn’t easy. Including home study time, easily past 2500 hours worth of work (working a fulltime job while doing it as well, just added to the misery… )

And yes while $1000 / hr is news, $500 – 700 (the standard) is not, which is still 20 – 30 TIMES a medics salary.

Is being a lawyer 20 -30 times more difficult than being a medic or even a nurse medic to that end?

And don’t get me started about CEO’s…

There is so much more to it that meets the eye....

EMS is a flooded market with a high turnover rate. Its in desperate need for educated individuals with a PROFESSIONAL attitude. However, as long as entrance requirements are minimal for entering EMS, we will always be the victims of supply and demand. Too many EMTs who all want to volunteer, forcing the paid guys to get three separate jobs just to get by.

Career wise, until things change, EMS is a dead end career for most. I love my job, I really do. I just don't see myself paying a mortgage, supporting my family, and helping my kids out through college with it. Eventually, I'll have to hang up my boots too.....

Pacman,

I can see your point as well, but EMT’s as hard as they work, are at a different education level then Medics, so they can’t really be compared here when referring to education but still are they worth the money they get?

And yes, the standards for medic’s is not as high as it should be, but keep in mind, we are expected to evaluate / diagnose /and then TREAT life threatening conditions in the field in a few minutes, something that can take a lot longer in the ER (and if you’ve ever seen a CODE run in an ER verses the field, you tell me which one goes smother?) Not everyone can do it, and few can do it well.

Again, You’re right EMS for most is a dead end CAREER, and I even work in a system that does some advanced critical care procedures as well, Balloon pump, neonate transport etc.

So I have to ask why is that only worth 1/50 (or so) of these other professions?

Why do we get paid what we do, when doing what cannot be called, by any standard, trivial work.

No one here has argued the point we are undervalued.

But again I ask why?

Where does the value point get defined, is it us? or the public?

[HellsBells]

But why?

Where does the value point get defined, is it us? or the public

Why? Because EMT's, Paramedic's have nothing to do with lawyers. I don't see why your even trying to make a comparison between the two; because of some offhand remark made about saving lives? WANTYNU, I also think that is irresponsible of you to make the statement that it takes 2 years for a law degree, when you know full well lawyers need an undergrad degree, go through at least 6 years of schooling, and rack up massive student debt.

If you want to compare professions, lets see where we measure up to X-ray techs, Sonographers, Lab techs, Respiratory techs, RN's, etc. Professions in the health care field that require the amount of education similar to that of a Paramedic. The question to ask is why do they make more than us?