Educational Nightmare in Alberta

[Richard B the EMT]

In Canada, is the legal system operating on the premise that an individual is presumed innocent until proven guilty, as we in the US supposedly do?

Also, if proven not guilty, as someone pointed out to me regarding a different person's alleged crime, "Where does one go to get their good reputation restored?"

[Just Plain Ruff]

Richard, that's just it. Once your reputation has been tarnished even though you have been cleared of whatever caused it to be tarnished, the damage is done.

It takes a single second to destroy a reputation but it takes a lifetime to restore that reputation and I would say 99% of those whose reputations were destroyed never got those rep's back.

It's a terrible thing that our society is like this but unfortunately this is the way it is.

[tniuqs]

In Canada, is the legal system operating on the premise that an individual is presumed innocent until proven guilty, as we in the US supposedly do?

Also, if proven not guilty, as someone pointed out to me regarding a different person's alleged crime, "Where does one go to get their good reputation restored?"

Yes how true and unfortunate, the ideological concept of "innocent until proven guilty" has long been forgotten on both sides of the border, well except in Quebec it IS different. It is the reverse but then again the French are very Strange" or maybe they knew from the get go? I dunno.

Personally this has happened to me.... I lost a job there is NO way that even after winning a very long and very stressful battle (I had to sign a non disclosure clause to financially and finally support my family) It has on numerous occasions been asked if I was Fired....Yea well My bank account showes the truth.... whatever, I don't think I can ever live it down... so, it sucks to be me. :shock:

no cheer

[hr:ce68d7a965]

Thank you for saying that!

I just dont think that this can go without something being done, its one thing that it was done by a fellow emt, but its an entirly differnent that it was done by an instructor.

Having said that, now that us members of the college who are empowerd by the knowledge of this event, do we not have the responsibility to report it to Conduct and Competency comittee? Is this any differnt that the member who got his licence suspended because he did not tell ACP that he saw his partner relieving his sexual tension? (correction) while his partner was in the back with an u/c pt?

Yes : I would hope that alternative complaints resolution guidelines would be followed, the only problem excists that I see is that I have personally have very little faith that the individual at ACoP will actually make a choice to investigate....they have been known to protect the "College" and not the individuals rights...of this I have past proof of gross incompetance... yet another story and off topic... sorry, but rest assured a responsible individual has been apprised to investigate this "senario".

Well thanks for that, but when it comes to professionalism I am afraid now you too have let us down just a touch, come on man, no need to get gross here, shock value does not the point make. That said the point of sexual interference is valid, did that EMT touch the patient? Never mind I really don't want to know...ee gads he will go blind man, didn't his Mother tell him?

I do agree with your comment re: That a member of the Paramedic community that has used a position of responsibility to take alleged advantage of a situation...as a past Instructor myself, if the demonstration of a "Quick Look" is important for the education of a student then I use the "bilateral hand technique" discussed prior, or use my own very fish belly white chest... and that's SO not appealing to EVERYONE like fat bastard in Austin Powers...sorry for that visual! hey or just like aussiephil.....LMAO! Slam!

now thats cheers !

[hr:ce68d7a965]

Quoting Masta: Let us first verify the specifics of this allegation. The best situation would see the students involved (registered EMRs) come forward rather then those on the outside merely hearing of it through the grapevine.

Unfortunately it appears that this... can I say "child" here? Is not very aware that perhaps someone wants to check out her parts and perhaps even the "writer" could be baiting a bit too.....but that has never been done before...yea right.

But if this is truly an innocent and just interesed in paramedicine then it does fall upon the experianced veterans to point out a suspect impropriety. I have since returned to the "other" forum and lo and behold some very good advice is posed by the seniors on that site...I hope this gal listens to it and many others that know that this "senario is inappropriate" Or could it be that they, "the rookies" blindly follow "a god like paramedic instructor" without any question...jeese I hope not.

Fact that defib was discharged with some b.s. explanation raised some serious doubt in my mind as to validity of this rather impromptu due demonstration in the first place.

cheers

[hr:ce68d7a965]

Quoting Ruffems:

Professionalism starts at the individual level and not the industry level.

[align=center:ce68d7a965]DO I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU AGAIN?[/align:ce68d7a965]

I think I did just demonstrate that myself through my very action's....I hate when you do that!

[align=center:ce68d7a965]WHO ARE YOU my ex wife?[/align:ce68d7a965]

ps I'm pissed...and where is my occasional free stuff again? Oh yea in the mail just like last time :twisted:

cheers again.

[Dustdevil]

Let us first verify the specifics of this allegation. The best situation would see the students involved (registered EMRs) come forward rather then those on the outside merely hearing of it through the grapevine.

I'm afraid I can't get on board with this suggestion. For us to start digging into this personally reeks of vigilantism. For us to just let it go is negligently apathetic. You are correct, that this is only an accusation at this time. That is why I don't think any discussion of names is appropriate. But the proper bodies to verify the specifics, and to act upon them, is ACP and the school in question. If they are not notified, then there will never be any verification, one way or another. If it never happened, or if this is all just the lunatic rantings of yet another Internet drama queen, then that will be easily determined. But if there is fire beneath this smoke, that too should be addressed by a regulatory body, not by us.

I believe our role here in the peanut gallery is nothing more than interested observers. There are SO many lessons to be learned from this scenario. Whether it happened as we have been told or not is irrelevant. This is still a very educational professional discussion.

By the way, the thread is -- as I predicted -- gone again, at the request of the original poster. Not sure I can really blame her, as it must be pretty embarrassing as she realises how inappropriate this scenario really was. Did anybody take my advice and copy/paste or screen capture the original post for us?

[tniuqs]

I'm afraid I can't get on board with this suggestion. For us to start digging into this personally reeks of vigilantism. For us to just let it go is negligently apathetic. You are correct, that this is only an accusation at this time. That is why I don't think any discussion of names is appropriate. But the proper bodies to verify the specifics, and to act upon them, is ACP and the school in question. If they are not notified, then there will never be any verification, one way or another. If it never happened, or if this is all just the lunatic rantings of yet another Internet drama queen, then that will be easily determined. But if there is fire beneath this smoke, that too should be addressed by a regulatory body, not by us.

I believe our role here in the peanut gallery is nothing more than interested observers. There are SO many lessons to be learned from this scenario. Whether it happened as we have been told or not is irrelevant. This is still a very educational professional discussion.

By the way, the thread is -- as I predicted -- gone again, at the request of the original poster. Not sure I can really blame her, as it must be pretty embarrassing as she realises how inappropriate this scenario really was. Did anybody take my advice and copy/paste or screen capture the original post for us?

Well good words once again, I did not copy but yes quite the conundrum... but lets put things back on the track :

Always a BUT with me never has the word "apathy" been used to describe my character, that said.

Lots of other adjectives have been used, I wear them well, te he. I seriously doubt that ACoP can do this effectively or impartially they have not in the past, hey Dust you have dealt with the rhetoric haven't you ?

For us to start digging into this personally reeks of vigilantism.

YES an NO this can entirely dependant on the person that does go that one step further, vigilanties are renown to "HANG EM HIGH" there Duke.

Want to know the whole story here, I will attempt to explain with my very poor excuse of use of the English language.

First off a severe reprimand to 8151 you are completely WRONG,

You have brought disgrace by identifying someone that had NO part in this, factually, was never even involved in anyway shape or form...shame on you You are hide behind your anonymity but wish to identify someone by name AND attempt to discredit an educational provider that puts Heart, Soul, Blood and Sweat to apropriately train and prepare future students. The very people that could and will positively affect EMS in the future again hide your head in shame 8151. Most of the other other commentary was made theroretically and based on the information presented by a student and not "all" the info was represented in the correct manner.

SO was a discharge of 5 watts into a pillow to demonstrate the "click" of the capacitor...inapropriate or unsafe ?

Rationale: The LP 10 does NOT have a self test so without experience and in-depth knowledge about this model, operators would never be aware that the monitor was even functioning correctly. A very good learning experience as some industrial providers still use this piece of er artifact! (another topic) Besides, the capacitors need to be discharged after being charged, preferably into a testing base, inspected annually by a bio-tech, so the demo was justified in my mind but when you don't have a base at hand then just what does one do.... put them back in the holders and turn off and the capacitor will loose the charge, so now the students know, unfortunately the poster forgot to mention this piece of info too.

(I forgot this as well I was thinking of the LP 10C)

A comprehensive monitor with most of the bells and whistles WAS on the site, but it was not 12 lead capable, and there was lots of electrodes.... So does one do a 12 lead on an asymptomatic student that display absolutely no signs of any cardio pulmonary distress ? Just a possible adrenergic response, and like Warren Zevon said "Just an excitable girl"

(and self admitted by the poster as well......)

The paddles were never applied to the anyone's chest. It was explained the use of quik look selection but this was called "playing with the buttons or something like that" again by the poster, the paddles by applying to a student’s arms/hands (as previously discussed) the first simulated patient was a male, hmmm not the same story I first read about. Then electrodes applied to the arms, then the writer of the post applied the stickies to HERSELF, it was her curiosity about herself that lead to this not the instructor. A bit of a failure to communicate here and this lack of information lead us down the garden path. There was no impropriety at all of this I am quite convinced.

Mastabatter made a very good point, but we missed it, why did no EMRs report....because there was no breach of inapropriate touch....simple.

Hey I jumped on this too...shame on me! bad, bad squint go to your room without a beer.

Your just the village idiots helper after all !. :oops:

Could the fact "not mentioned" that this was a rather portly gal, the possibility of axis deviation should be considered. Again the writer i.e. "inverted T waves" forget to mention a strong but gentle advice to have this investigated further by the Instructor? NOPE!

It sounded like the student initiated that advice, so not the complete story. The writer themselves stated that they were IDDM for over 15 years and the possibility of infarct is not entirely "rare" these days in the bariatric population. Even at a very young age, the ectopy noted was multi-focal but that was not reported either, nor shown on the strip, this Instructor does know his stuff, a comment was that the inverted T waves started levelling out in lead 3....also indicative of some axis irregularities.

I know this man well and I would trust him with my life and that of my children.

I hope this speaks to his credibility and this well respected school.

8151 can treat my ex....oops, darn outside voice again.

Isnt it odd that those that are the students, always know best?

Now let us look at this writer, just her handle alone, this maybe just a touch of "look at me I'm different"? I suspected a very smart, but a bit oversensitive chicky that really wants to get more information, perhaps just a over exuberant is all, and I love keeners!

But here is the shining light in this excersise: The REAL Instructor was extremely concerned that this students feeling would be hurt and she would loose her confidence and be detured from futher attempts to be accepted by the community of EMS, so lets not eat our own, no matter how good they taste.

cheers

[rock_shoes]

tniuqs, I take it you managed to get the lowdown on what actually happened. I'm happy to hear it wasn't what was indicated by the initial poster on the other forum. That would have been a real black eye for the profession.

[Dustdevil]

tniuqs, I take it you managed to get the lowdown on what actually happened. I'm happy to hear it wasn't what was indicated by the initial poster on the other forum. That would have been a real black eye for the profession.

Definitely. But the lessons are still here to be learned. Number 1: perception is everything. The way this student perceived the situation is how she is going to tell it, right or wrong. And that is how our image is created. One must always ask onesself, "how is this going to look?" Regardless of his intentions, I still think this guy was being stupid.

And, of course, I don't think any of us here are naive enough to actually think that this situation, exactly as we suspected it, doesn't occur everyday somewhere. The fact remains that there are indeed a lot of unprofessional, ignorant, and immature people in EMS, and in EMS education. Be alert for these people, because their actions hurt all of us.