National Statistics

[Dustdevil]

I am definitely not an employer. I'm just a guy who has been fighting this fight for thirty years, and have heard all the arguments and all the excuses. I wish you success, and that is why I am just making sure you realise that you're not going to be able to just lob up a few statistics and impress them. They too have been fighting this fight for a long time, and they already know every argument you are going to present. It's not enough to plan the presentation. You must plan the response to their counter-presentation.

You've done well here, my friend. You are indeed thinking ahead. Good luck!

[Ridryder 911]

Ditto... to what Dust said. For us that have fought mangers, CFO's , CPA's, and every other managerial "justification" team... the best defense is a good offense.

Sounds like you are getting well prepared, but I would practice and have as much prepared statistics for them as possible. Remember, you are going to have to paint a flawless picture of why and how you are going to justify raises and existence. I have been at corporate, city, managerial meetings where the EMS personnel came in "loaded for bear" and expected to win.... only to loos more than they would had if they just had kept quiet. Removing ALS personnel, and resorting to back BLS staff..Remember bean counters have no conscience except to save money!.....

We do wish you the best of luck and let us know how it turns out!

R/r 911

[Capman]

I will, and thanks a bunch for the advice, I'm expecting to get roughed up a bit. I mean what do I really have on my side when I'm fighting bussinessmen and lawyers?

So I actually appreciate the debate about my approach. I don't want to get blindsided with questions I can't answer.

So thanks again Dust' and Rid' for the great advice

Matt B.

[Dustdevil]

The number one problem you are going to run up against will be the fact that they staff their units just fine with the wages they are presently paying. They have drawers full of applications from people just itching to take your place. Again, supply and demand. What is in it for them if they pay you more? Will it make you a better medic? If you will work better for me for more money, than I don't want you working for me at all, will be their argument.

See, this is always the problem with unions. It's always "us against them," instead of "what can we do together?"

To be successful, you are going to have to focus your presentation on what is in it for them, not what is in it for you. If you go in there telling them what YOU want and what YOU need and what Joe EMT is making at the Los Angeles Fire Department, they're going to tune you out in the first thirty seconds. Don't be the aggressor. Don't even be an adversary at all. Be a salesman. Sell them on the idea that they will be getting great benefits for their money.

Ask not what your company can do for you. Ask what you can do for your company.

[Capman]

Exactly!

I have seen it before. Employees make a demand and employer plants their feet. My approach will focus on the community health issues with a failing EMS system in Northern Maine.

The problem up here is that the drawer is no longer full of applications as is once was.

Let me explain the service up here.

Our ambulance service covers 12 towns and has 9 rigs. This is done with four ambulance bases staffing 2-4 medics/emts in each. We have had the numbers on our roster drop significantly in the past few years as the older medics retire and others move on to nursing. The numbers that the college are putting out do not match the decline on the roster. This is to a point that the hospital has lowered standards by allowing First Responders to apply. Now instead of having two medics to a base, we now have a medic and a first responder (driver) in some of the bases. One of the bases is in a smaller town, and 10 times in the month of November this base was not manned due to either not being able to fill a call out from that base or not being able to fill a callout or shortage in another base leaving the service no other alternative but to pull the staff out of the smaller base to adequately staff the busier base.

This significantly reflects a staffing issue. We are also looking at several EMT's and medics who are going to retire or are currently in the nursing program and will not be working for the service in the next year or two. The college at the time has no students in the Paramedic program this year due to a lack of interest. In other words, we have no EMS personel to fill the gaps we have now and the gaps that are going to be a factor within the next year or two. I see a significant community health issue arising here. We are looking at increased response times when an ambulance has to come from the next town over because bases aren't staffed appropriately. I truly don't know where these medics are going to come from. Next we are looking at dropping rigs that are licensed at the paramedic level to basic licensure rigs. All of this this is amidst higher call volumes as the health of the "baby boomers" we here so much about begins to fail them.

This is going to be one of my sales pitches. After all, they are a community hospital. Isn't community health in their best of interest? :wink:

Debate and input welcome...

Matt B.

[Dustdevil]

The college at the time has no students in the Paramedic program this year due to a lack of interest.

:shock: I believe this is the first time I have ever heard this said in thirty three years.

This is going to be one of my sales pitches. After all, they are a community hospital. Isn't community health in their best of interest? :wink:

Good plan. The administration may not think it is in their interest, but if not, you may have an easier time convincing the Hospital Board that it is in their interest to not lose the trust of the community by mismanaging the trust they have placed in them to provide these services. And if not, a well placed public relations campaign with the community themselves may be the answer.

Again, good luck!

[Capman]

That is a good approach.

Thanks again Dust'

Matt B.

[Mediclcems]

Just how underpaid are we?

EMT-B: $7.04 base wage

EMT-I: $7.38 base wage

EMT-P: $9.63 base wage

That totally sucks! We just got bumped to 13.38 hr base wage for EMT-B

Tell them to stick that number in their pipe and smoke it!

[NREMT-Basic]

Just to throw in my 2 cents (as it were) and totally confuse the conversation:

In this thread there have been discussions of pay based on training, experience, supply and demand, etc. If we were to confine the topic to simply dealing with private 911 response agencies, should someone with more education make more than someone with less. I honestly dont know the answer to this so I would love to hear some good intelligent responses. After the service that I was with when I first got my basic went to all ALS crews and laid off all Basics, citing that it was a business decision since they felt that an all ALS service would generate more revenue, gain more private standby contracts, etc. When I went to the next private agency to find a job, I was turned down for lack of experience. Fair enough I suppose though it stuck in my craw for a couple of weeks. Now that service that went belly up had medics with a plethora of different levels of experience, training, time on level, etc. Here is the question. Should private agencies consider those factors when determining how much to pay new staff. I have an associates degree with honors, a bachelors degree with honors and 1 year in medical school before I forced to drop out after an auto accident. Should I be paid the same wages as someone who has a high school diploma only or even a GED and has equivalent time on the job? Should life experience count for anything? The emt that beat me out for the gig has GED and about a year of experience. I am confused by my own question here but I would really like to know what you think Ops Managers should do about hiring when they are non-union and have the ability to offer more or less pay based on experience, training and education. If you can make any sense of my question here, I look forward to your input. Writing the darn thing gave me a headache.

[Dustdevil]

Writing the darn thing gave me a headache.

Well, on the surface, it seems like a no-brainer. But in reality, the business world doesn't commonly function like that. There are plenty of hospitals out there that pay ADNs and BSNs the same salary, with no differentiation. Same thing in the business world. Most companies hire for a specific position, and that position is allocated a certain salary range, regardless of the person's bona fides. While a lot of police and fire departments pay extra for educational achievement, many do not. The federal government is one of the few places where education is always taken into consideration in wages. Well, I say "always," but really, if your job tops out at GS9, then no amount of education is going to get you above that level. But at least you will get to GS9 quicker with a PhD than without it. But, I digress...

So no, I do not think that education should always be compensated for in salaries. Many times, the education is simply irrelevant to the position. And even that education which is relevant must be exercised in order to be valuable to the employer. In other words, it is not so much the education itself which is important; it is what the individual does with that education that makes the difference for the employer. If you utilise your education to better your performance and benefit the employer, then that should indeed be compensated. But it is reasonable that the compensation would be in the form of promotions and merit raises, or getting the job in the first place, not simply extra money for extra hours of college. And really, with a better employer, that is how it happens. Those who perform superbly are rewarded. But, of course, if you work for an employer who is stupid enough to reward incompetence and arse kissing instead of intelligent and educated performance, then you are an idiot for staying there, which does not speak well for the quality of your education (not speaking of "you" personally, of course).

Now I have a headache too. :?