Fox Reality The Academy

[HERBIE1]

I can only speak directly from my own experiences, but the trends are indeed nationwide. Fires are down and around 80% of what a fire service responds to are medical calls. That's a fact we all know. We have firefighters here that can go through their entire probationary period and NEVER see a fire. As was mentioned, education, prevention and better building construction, fire retardants, sprinklers, etc, are a good thing. Problem is, like anything, drilling and simulations can only do so much, and like medical skills, if you don;t use it, you lose it. Then again, if you never get that experience, what are you supposed to do?

We see older firefighters who may have the experience, but after years of inactivity and the toll those fires have taken on their bodies, when something DOES happen, they feel like they should be able to function at the same level as they did in their prime. Overexertion plus less than optimum conditioning means danger to their bodies.

In most systems, EMS is constantly working- lifting patients and equipment all day. As was pointed out, even people who may be larger can still be physically fit, but are still in no less danger if they are not taking proper care of themselves.

Can you imagine training for something for months, and then may wait months more or even years to use that training?

Most people come out of training in the best shape of their lives. Some keep it up throughout their careers, but the vast majority do not. Even 15 years ago, fires were A LOT more prevalent, and members were far more physically fit because they worked hard nearly every day. Now, they can count their fires in the last year on one hand if they are lucky. Aerobic and weight training are tough, and to keep that up for an entire career takes dedication- especially when you aren't able to perform the skills you trained to do.

Personally, I can honestly say that if after finishing paramedic school, I don't know how motivated I could remain to stay fit, stay current on my skills, etc, if I was never able to use what I had learned.

[fireflymedic]

I have to disagree with you on EMS being more physically demanding than fire, even in the presence of low call volume. We actually do interior firefighting a good amount of the time as opposed to exterior ops. And even if we do decide to go defensive (surround and drown) we still need to do a primary search. It takes a high level of conditioning to be fully encapulated in your gear, where there's absolutely no way to vent body heat, breathing what isn't enough air, as in conserving air and not being to take a deep enough breath when you need it, basically oxygen deprivation when you think about it. This can be in high heat conditions, where you're either humping hose, breaking down doors/walls, and carrying out bodies while already greatly fatigued. What about throwing ladders? One ought to be able to throw a 35 by themselves, but I'll let that go. If you can't throw a 24 by yourself, and then climb it and throw a roof ladder, you're useless on the fireground, as you're wasting precious time and may need another FF to help you when they have other tasks to accomplish. Try venting a roof with only an axe and a pike pole. It'll kick your arse if you're out of shape as you need to do it as quick as possible, before you fall through the roof.

What's the most strenuous thing an EMS provider does? Maybe carrying someone down the stairs on a Reeves or stair chair? My breathing doesn't even change. Even pulling drywall is more tiring than that. Most EMS agencies require you to deadlift 125 lbs by yourself and 250 with assistance. Not tough to do.

Why do you think that there are so many FF's stroking out and having massive MI's and dropping dead on/after a call? Poor physical conditioning. I don't see many dropping dead while doing EMS activities, thank goodness.

I respectfully have to say I think you misread my post. I believe this was my exact statement

"You need to be in as good if not better shape for EMS as the demands are on a regular and consistent basis, not occasional like in the fire service."

Meaning you are going to be exposed to the same high level of stresses on a regular basis (multiple times a day) as opposed to occasionally as in a fire where you work very hard no doubt and alot of stress is placed on that time, but even in busy fire hall's it is not usually multiple times a day every day. Think of it in these terms - EMS is more a repetitive stress job - the injuries you'll likely see are from the same stresses over and over wearing on the body. Biggest complaint in EMS that ends careers besides burnout - back injuries and it's from frequent lifting, turning, etc. That eventually causes significant wear and tear on the body and repetitive injuries much similar to those experienced by those who do factory work, etc. It's still going to happen to some degree, but if properly conditioned, it's going to be significantly reduced prolonging your career. Fire however, is more likely to be a traumatic injury - also due to deconditioned body, but more from the fact your body wasn't adequately prepared initially for the job rather than daily wear and tear. This I suspect is the largest reason that MI's are a huge cause of death within the fire service. If you look at it in that aspect, no one is harder than the other, but the effects it has on the body differ in the injury causes. I have worked both urban and rural fire and ems so I think I can make a fair comparison.

As far as the demands placed on EMS - it really varies where you work. Some rural places deal with a different situation and have to pack people out for long distances (hunters, hikers, etc in wooded areas). Some urban people are frequently packing people down multiple flights of stairs because the building is so old it doesn't have an elevator. Each says their job is hard, make them switch places and they'll respect the other side. It's just a different game whatever area you are and you have to condition your body to the needs of the job you perform and the area you serve. That's the ideal way we prevent injuries, not sitting here debating who's job is harder, better, or more dangerous.

[46Young]

First, you can be fit and still fat...there is a difference.

You say fire is more demanding, but when comparing a strictly EMS service side by side of a strictly FD, which does more work on average consistently? Which of the two is more physically demanding with more hazard exposures? A FD will have many hazards at one incident but an EMS provider will have several hazards at every incident of every call. Statistically, run numbers favor EMS, therefore EMS is exposed to more danger, more hazards and continuous work (physical activity) than FD.

Could the reason be that EMS providers are more fit despite the fat due to continuous work constantly with slightly elevated heart rates punctuated with sporadic HR peaks for flavor?

Could it be FFs get complacent in their duties and despite being 40, still act and "feel" like they are 18?

Could the bravado/machismo mentality contribute to the point where the FF pushes himself so as not to be seen as the weak link?

Just asking...

Doing more work an average consistently, of low to moderate exertion in this case, doesn't equal the physical demands and requisite prep work for markedly more strenuous, albeit less frequent incidents. I could walk 5 miles a day, every day, maybe jogging for a quater mile after every mile. That's okay for burning calories, but will do little for overall conditioning, unless I'm grossly undertrained. Now compare that to the demands of running 10 sprints on a track (1.25 miles) maybe once every four days. The walker will be done after maybe two or three sprints, and will likely either pull a muscle, or possibly exacerbate a cardiac/respiratory condition. Low to moderate physical activity, even if done to excess, has little transfer to high intensity ecercises. Notice how the recruits are doing circuits with wallball, kettlebell swings, push presses and burpees? Way more intense and appropriate than moderate intensity distance running and some high rep calisthenics, which is already more strenuous than the average ambulance shift.

Many large FD's at the present learn from LODD's and seek to prevent recurrences through training and new SOP's. One such preventative measure is death with a cardiac etiology sustained either responding to, during, or returning from an incident. We, like others, have a peer fitness program, an OHC for yearly evals including blood work, stress tests, mobility eval, vision/hearing, and such. We have a yearly work performance eval, where you're geared up, on air, and complete a work circuit in under 10:47. I've noticed that a fair number of these stress related LODD's are suffered by volunteers, who may not have any such preventative programs in place, and also may not participate often.

I don't know about bravado and machismo. We train to go at least 1/2 hour straight at high intensity, which is about the max our 45 min cylinder will last before going into vibralert.

I once considered going into FDNY EMS. Their PAT was a mere 3 mins on a 60 step/min stepmill while wearing 30 extra pounds. The other tasks were equally unchallenging. Compare that with a FF physical test. The entrance test was once quirte rigorous, and you had to be in top condition and strong to pass. Now, we have the CPAT. It's a vastly watered down version of previous tests designed to cater to certain protected classes, who cried that the former PAT was too tough, and was preventing many from that protected class from advancing through the hiring process. Even the CPAT (which is a joke) is way more intense than any EMS styled PAT's. If single role EMS were more physically strenuous overall when compared with single role FF's, would the physical testing for EMS not reflect that, comparitively speaking?

AK, how is EMS exposed to more dangers than suppression jobs? Single role EMS aren't generally subjesct to IDLH conditions, good depts have suppression pieces block the road during an MVA, shielding the scene, PD secure the scene prior to entry. Good training prevents BBP exposure and needle sticks. I worked in NYC, where we faced more potential dangers than most. I've never left for work there wondering if it would be for the last time. Unlikely I'll lose life or limb on the job, but there is a much greater chance, statistically speaking, than in EMS.

[46Young]

Here's a great video from one of my favorite sites.I believe these guys are Phoenix Fire. Great montage. I love the snatch/C&J shots along with the FF carrying down the other FF while on air and making it look easy. Check out the message at the end. That says it all. It's equally applicable to both EMS and fire.

[JPINFV]

What the hell is the captain's obsession with blue collar work? A work ethic is a work ethic, regardless of if a person can be called 'white collar' or 'blue collar.'

Edited November 15, 2009 by JPINFV

[46Young]

What the hell is the captain's obsession with blue collar work? A work ethic is a work ethic, regardless of if a person can be called 'white collar' or 'blue collar.'

The captain is implying that blue collar work is "hands on", rather than pushing pens or working off of a computer, which generally doesn't require one to get dirty or exert themselves physically to any significant degree. The captain is working to instill a strong work ethic and to discourage shortcuts and laziness. In the fire service everyone helps out one another, exhibiting selflessness and the desire to do their part, to achieve their goals as a team. The repeated blue collar references are meant to drive home the fact that the recruits are no longer working in corporate America or other jobs that don't require the same degree of physical effort and a selfless, team oriented approach.

To me, the term "blue collar" conjures up images af my forefathers working the Brooklyn docks, construction work, public safety, and any manual labor job. The captain seeks to assosciate those images of hard working individuals with the physical effort required with a career in the fire service.

The fire academy is all about the symbolism of what they're being asked to do. When we walked the hall, we always hugged the right wall, and always had to have a partner. This serves as a reminder that we adhere to the "two in/two out" rule, and to stay oriented on a wall when working the interior in low to no visibility conditions, to avoid becoming lost. We had an 0700 start time. Many were there at around 0500-0530 already setting things up for that days practicals. If you show after 0600, you're regarded as a selfish, lazy minute man, not willing to help out others who may benefit by you arriving to work early consistently. Whenever we leave class, we take our PIK kits (fanny packs with gloves, goggles, antimicrobial gel, face shield, N-95, etc) and our water bottle without exception. This is to reinforce the importance of remembering to take all necessary equipment/gear to each call. Everyone's gear must be arranged exactly the same way at lineup, and each recruit must appear exactly the same as everyone else. This symbolizes the team mentality, with a de-emphasis of "self".

Edited November 15, 2009 by 46Young

[JPINFV]

To me, the term "blue collar" conjures up images af my forefathers working the Brooklyn docks, construction work, public safety, and any manual labor job. The captain seeks to assosciate those images of hard working individuals with the physical effort required with a career in the fire service.

Yea... too bad there are plenty of hand's on, 'white collar' type of jobs out there. If someone started preaching to me about white vs blue collar attitude, I'd end up rolling my eyes at them. Of course, I consider medicine to be white collar, and a fairly messy, hands on job.

The fire academy is all about the symbolism of what they're being asked to do. When we walked the hall, we always hugged the right wall, and always had to have a partner. This serves as a reminder that we adhere to the "two in/two out" rule, and to stay oriented on a wall when working the interior in low to no visibility conditions, to avoid becoming lost. We had an 0700 start time. Many were there at around 0500-0530 already setting things up for that days practicals. If you show after 0600, you're regarded as a selfish, lazy minute man, not willing to help out others who may benefit by you arriving to work early consistently. Whenever we leave class, we take our PIK kits (fanny packs with gloves, goggles, antimicrobial gel, face shield, N-95, etc) and our water bottle without exception. This is to reinforce the importance of remembering to take all necessary equipment/gear to each call. Everyone's gear must be arranged exactly the same way at lineup, and each recruit must appear exactly the same as everyone else. This symbolizes the team mentality, with a de-emphasis of "self".

You want to make 5am or 6am the start time, then make that the start time. Making the start time 7am and expecting people to show up at 5am just means that who ever is in charge has absolutely no organizational skills. 15 minutes is an error. 2 hours continuously is stupidity. Now if the requirement is "we need X ready to go by 7am and your team is responsible for X," then that's a different situation completely and a situation that should be organized within the team, including who's responsible (if it's something that can be delegated to a smaller group) and when that team's start time is.

[46Young]

Yea... too bad there are plenty of hand's on, 'white collar' type of jobs out there. If someone started preaching to me about white vs blue collar attitude, I'd end up rolling my eyes at them. Of course, I consider medicine to be white collar, and a fairly messy, hands on job.

You want to make 5am or 6am the start time, then make that the start time. Making the start time 7am and expecting people to show up at 5am just means that who ever is in charge has absolutely no organizational skills. 15 minutes is an error. 2 hours continuously is stupidity. Now if the requirement is "we need X ready to go by 7am and your team is responsible for X," then that's a different situation completely and a situation that should be organized within the team, including who's responsible (if it's something that can be delegated to a smaller group) and when that team's start time is.

No, showing up early, 1-1/2 hours early is one of many ways to show the academy how much you really want the job, the job that many others covet. We were required to be dressed and lined up with our gear arranged by no later than 0700. There was much to set up for the day's practicals. Waiting until after lineup to start arranging the equipment wastes time that could be better spent getting in extra skills rotations. Showing up early with your classmates benefits the group, whereas getting an extra hour of sleep is purely selfish.

Showing up early in the field benefits your fellow FF, potentially saving them a late job. In turn they also show up early to relieve you. In both cases, the off going FF can go home immediately after being relieved at 0600 or whatever. One hand washes the other. People helping people. Selfish minuteman skells have no place in EMS, fire, or any combination thereof. If you're so petty as to think along the lines of "if they pay me from 0700, then I'll be there at exactly 0700" you'll likely be self centered and be lazy/look for shortcuts in other areas as well. This is an undesireable and incompatible attribute when seeking employment within the fire service.

Perhaps you need to experience the fire academy first hand to truly understand and appreciate the lessons and core values that are being instilled.

[JPINFV]

No, showing up early, 1-1/2 hours early is one of many ways to show the academy how much you really want the job, the job that many others covet. We were required to be dressed and lined up with our gear arranged by no later than 0700. There was much to set up for the day's practicals. Waiting until after lineup to start arranging the equipment wastes time that could be better spent getting in extra skills rotations. Showing up early with your classmates benefits the group, whereas getting an extra hour of sleep is purely selfish.

Oh, please. Do you understand how many people covet medical school? There are schools that will get over 7k application, of which only around 500-700 are actually interviewed for 100-150 spots. By your standard, we should show up a 5am for a 7am lecture for no better reason than the fact that there's thousands of applicants who didn't even get an interview. Now, again, as I noted earlier it's one thing to be prepared by start time. However, if it takes me 15 minutes to be prepared after showing up, why should I show up an hour or two earlier if I'm not responsible for something? Having the proper number of people show up early to set up is an important leadership ability known as delegation. Similarly, setting a proper time to meet up so that the job can be completed by a deadline (say, start of that day's session) is another important ability known as planning. Of course this is different than requiring everyone to show up 2 hours early because one person can't seem to be prepared.

Showing up early in the field benefits your fellow FF, potentially saving them a late job. In turn they also show up early to relieve you. In both cases, the off going FF can go home immediately after being relieved at 0600 or whatever. One hand washes the other. People helping people. Selfish minuteman skells have no place in EMS, fire, or any combination thereof. If you're so petty as to think along the lines of "if they pay me from 0700, then I'll be there at exactly 0700" you'll likely be self centered and be lazy/look for shortcuts in other areas as well. This is an undesireable and incompatible attribute when seeking employment within the fire service.

...and maybe some services need to do better at scheduling and have an overlap to ensure proper hand off. I don't expect people to show up early, and magically enough, I don't moan and groan if my job requires me to fulfill the duties there of. To be honest, I find the "ZOMG, someone didn't show up 30 minutes early and I actually have to work" to be pretty petty and selfish. People should be making sure their work is done properly and not just staring at the clock like counting down the end of detention.

Oh, and I'd place money on the people who can't figure out how to show up on time and need a 2 hour leeway to be the one's who need shortcuts. The people who can actually properly manage their time would probably be the ones that work efficiently and be able to complete their tasks quickly and properly.

Edited November 15, 2009 by JPINFV

[46Young]

Oh, please. Do you understand how many people covet medical school? There are schools that will get over 7k application, of which only around 500-700 are actually interviewed for 100-150 spots. By your standard, we should show up a 5am for a 7am lecture for no better reason than the fact that there's thousands of applicants who didn't even get an interview. Now, again, as I noted earlier it's one thing to be prepared by start time. However, if it takes me 15 minutes to be prepared after showing up, why should I show up an hour or two earlier if I'm not responsible for something? Having the proper number of people show up early to set up is an important leadership ability known as delegation. Similarly, setting a proper time to meet up so that the job can be completed by a deadline (say, start of that day's session) is another important ability known as planning. Of course this is different than requiring everyone to show up 2 hours early because one person can't seem to be prepared.

...and maybe some services need to do better at scheduling and have an overlap to ensure proper hand off. I don't expect people to show up early, and magically enough, I don't moan and groan if my job requires me to fulfill the duties there of. To be honest, I find the "ZOMG, someone didn't show up 30 minutes early and I actually have to work" to be pretty petty and selfish. People should be making sure their work is done properly and not just staring at the clock like counting down the end of detention.

Oh, and I'd place money on the people who can't figure out how to show up on time and need a 2 hour leeway to be the one's who need shortcuts. The people who can actually properly manage their time would probably be the ones that work efficiently and be able to complete their tasks quickly and properly.

We're talking about time consuming physical taske that allow for more time for training if taken care of before the day's start, not rolling in for a lecture. Everyone's gear needs to aligned just so, and it also needs to be a team effort to get that squared away, not just one or two people taking care of it. Many hands makes light work.

Every station starts at 0700. There's no overlap of start times. Showing up an hour early is selfless and helps out the other person. The favor is returned in kind. You're actually not losing any time, as you get to leave work an hour early. I show up around 0540 or so, do a quick cursory rig check, and work out until the start of work. It benefits the off going crew and myself.