Would you deny your son?

[Chief1C]

Here's something, hypothetical, unrelated; suppose the child refuses further treatment? Do you force him/her into it, knowing the treatment (Chemo) may end his life earlier than it may by letting it go; or do you upold his/her wishes to just die, and not be resuscitated?

My great uncle had a small tumor near a kidney. He was in perfect health otherwise, they found it by accident, doing an MRI for an unrelated injury. He wanted to have it removed, and the kidney if necessary. His doctor urged him to go through radiation and chemotherapy, before he was willing to just take the tumor out. It was about the size of a grape. Removing it would be risky, but then again, cancer itself is death eventually. He was truly in good health, he was active, not over weight. Suppose he had refused the treatment, and had the surgery; we'll never know.. He may have had a short lease on life, but at least he would have had some more quality time with his family. He had ONE (1) chemo treatment, came home exhausted, nauseous, vomiting; and died an hour later of a heart attack.

[chbare]

Here's something, hypothetical, unrelated; suppose the child refuses further treatment? Do you force him/her into it, knowing the treatment (Chemo) may end his life earlier than it may by letting it go; or do you upold his/her wishes to just die, and not be resuscitated?

My great uncle had a small tumor near a kidney. He was in perfect health otherwise, they found it by accident, doing an MRI for an unrelated injury. He wanted to have it removed, and the kidney if necessary. His doctor urged him to go through radiation and chemotherapy, before he was willing to just take the tumor out. It was about the size of a grape. Removing it would be risky, but then again, cancer itself is death eventually. He was truly in good health, he was active, not over weight. Suppose he had refused the treatment, and had the surgery; we'll never know.. He may have had a short lease on life, but at least he would have had some more quality time with his family. He had ONE (1) chemo treatment, came home exhausted, nauseous, vomiting; and died an hour later of a heart attack.

I am not sure how any of this relates to the situation at hand. First, the patient is in no position to make decisions about his health. He clearly does not fully understand his situation. (With the current evidence available.) As stated earlier, his condition has a very good chance of responding to treatment. (Provided things have not progressed as states earlier.)

Anecdotal arguments have limited value when we look at these situations. If we look at the evidence, five year survival rates are actually quite good with proper treatment started early. Thus, it is more likely that the treatment could prolong his life. Not treating the disease is typically a death sentence. In addition, the judge did say that if further testing indicated a poor prognosis and the physicians would allow treatment to be with held, then so be it. At this point, he must be re-evaluated to see if additional treatment would be helpful. Seems a prudent thing to do IMHO?

Take care,

chbare.

[Just Plain Ruff]

As a special education teacher, I would have to say that a 13 year old unable to read is quite limited in his ability to understand the ramifications of this situation. If unable to read, it is very likely that his receptive comprehension in relatively low, as well as his expressive ability, so it would be very diffuclt to determine his ability to understand any of this. Even typical teenagers have very little understanding of the permanence of death ~ thus their very irresponsible behaviors such as driving too fast, suicide "attempts" for attention, etc ~ and their immature desire to "live for the moment".

and if he is unable to read what is to say that the parents are reading the correct words to him.

I'm all for the rights of the children but when they are under a certain age then they really can't make this life changing decision. They can assist in their choices but they cannot say "I don't want it"

Plus this religion is really from what I read a very new and strange religion and this kid at age 13 is an elder int this religion. Sounds like another snake charmer religion.

Too bad the right of this little kid is in question, but I'd rather have a live child than a dead one.

[EMS49393]

I know a man that demanded his wife (who felt bound by religion and upbringing to obey her husband) use prayer and natural remedies for her breast cancer. He scared her out of chemo and radiation following her mastectomy. He was a preacher and really had her convinced that prayer would cure her.

She died.

He married his mistress three months later.

I still miss my Aunt. He's still a bastard.

I have little tolerance for religious zealots. The kid deserves a chance. For once in my life, "way to go government for stepping in."

[Chief1C]

I am not sure how any of this relates to the situation at hand.

Take care,

chbare.

Really?

Here's something, hypothetical, unrelated

Edited May 17, 2009 by 4c6

[VentMedic]

Since the article states "restarting" chemo, that indicates the parents and the child had allowed conventional medicine into their lives. Now the question comes into how well conventional medicine supported them or not which made them turn totally to the religious alternatives?

Children should definitely be part of the decision making process regardless of age and learning abilities. If this child is under the care of a children's hospital, they should have the resources to explain things in terms a child and even the parents will understand. This should not be approached in a way where the child may perceive his treatment as punishment by not being kept informed. Did the child and family know what to expect with the first chemo treatment? To see a child, especially your own, get totally ill after a treatment can be very frightening. Did they have adequate staff support to get them through this? Too often orders are written and carried out without an adequate care plan although I would expect better from a children's hospital but not all are the same nor are the attendings. Sometimes egos and the hospital or doctor's own personal views about alternative medicine can even push patients to seek other options.

We now openly discuss alternative medicine and do allow some different treatments into our hospital. Massage, accupuncture, Reiki and nutrition are just a few of the things we support. It is explained as a team effort for the patient with everyone keeping an open mind. I myself have seen patients who defied all odds or the medical statistics and got well enough to live a long life when conventional medicine gave up.

Sometimes even in the adult world something like this plays out: "Yes Mr. Smith, the biopsy we did is positive for cancer. I've written the orders for you to get some additional tests and we'll start your chemo. We won't know how effective it'll be but just take the treatments and we'll followup later. Any questions you can call my receptionist for an appointment although I won't be available for a couple of weeks but maybe one of my colleagues may be able to help." I also believe any woman on this forum who has had a breast cancer scare or actually been through it will identify with how conventional medicine sometimes forgets the person and just treats the disease. When the patient and family's questions are not answered, it is very easy for them to find someone who will listen and yes, even take advantage of them for a profit.

To remove the family from the picture and tie the child down is not the best option and regardless as to what the statistics say, if the child feels punished, the best medicine in the world will not help his healing process. This is not just a one time deal like an acute illness or injury which can be easily treated with sedation and a couple of days on a ventilator. The support must be there for days, weeks, months and years to come. The child must also believe in the treatment being given. Since this family did allow conventional treatment initially and did seek help from conventional doctors to get to this point, I believe some where something could have been done differently to prevent them from losing faith in conventional medicine. Communication is often the key and if the child was treated as if he didn't understand what was happening to him and by doing so, he was also not keep in the information loop, I can see where a lot of fear and confusion can arise.

I also don't always agree with the legal system or the legislators on every issue since many have their on religious and personal beliefs. It's not like we haven't seen this happen many times before with George and Jeb Bush being a couple of examples of where their beliefs have been pushed onto the public. Stem Cell research is something that could benefit a disease like lymphoma. And Jeb's opinion on quality of life and the rights of the patients and families was a little on the fanatical side.

Of course it is very easy to criticize others when it is not your own child or family member and you are not the one living with the consequences. We can all say "if it was my child I would..." but until you have experienced something of this magnitude, it is hard to know if you will always be rational. You too may be scanning the internet looking for a miracle cure. I've also had co-workers talk about not wanting heroic measures done to save a loved one but yet a few have gone as far as reversing the DNR on their elderly parents at the last minute and have them placed on a ventilator.

I can also give many examples where conventional medicine does not always agree on the best treatment. Sometimes the best will be the most expensive and there are hospitals/doctors who will not acknowledge that treatment due to the cost factor. So, there can be many factors that may be specific to one area and their options to form an opinion when presented to a judge.

Edited May 17, 2009 by VentMedic