Guns in EMS

[spenac]

That lawsuit thing against employers didn't fly in Florida by the EMT(P)s and it probably hasn't held water in Texas either since there is a long list of no carry zones.

This is from the Texas statutes for Concealed Weapons.

Vent I am aware of that statute. My point is if the employer does chose to limit the right to defend oneself as allowed by law then if a medic is shot it could be argued that they might have had a better outcome had they been able to defend themselves. The lawsuit you mention was one before the fact, not after someone was shot, if I read correctly.

[Lone Star]

I'm still trying to figure out the sudden 'desire' by some EMS personnel to carry weapons while on duty. I'm a firm believer in people taking a proactive stance in their own defense, but let's get 'real' here....

If you REALLY want to carry a firearm while on duty, look into a career in law enforcement, or enlist in the military!

EMS is NOT law enforcement, and we have no business strapping on a 'hog leg' and going forth to defend the world!

Our job is MEDICAL INTERVENTION! While guns are nothing more than a tool in our 'self defense tool box', they ARE 'lethal force'. Lethal force is contrary to 'medical intervention'.

As VentMedic has pointed out, hospitals in most states are on the list of 'no carry zones' for firearms. Even if you're allowed to carry concealed, these are still 'no carry zones'! Have you ever noticed that 'in house security' and private security companies that have personnel at hospitals are NOT armed? This means that even if you ARE allowed to carry a firearm on duty, the hospital is STILL a NO CARRY ZONE!

Since you can't carry a firearm into a hospital, you have to be able to secure the weapon BEFORE entering, which means that you have to secure the weapon in the ambulance. If that weapon ends up as 'missing', then you could be held liable for improper storage, and ultimately, if someone gets injured or killed it's YOUR FAULT. You may not be prosecuted for it, but morally because you didnt secure your weapon properly, you were the cause of someone getting shot and possibly killed....can you live with that?

I've worked unarmed in some of the roughest area of Detroit, MI; I've never had a problem with worrying about my safety, but have been in some situations that the mere presence of a handgun could have made the outcome VERY different!

If you're concerned with your safety at a scene, CALL LAW ENFORCEMENT, thats their job!

Hospitals are not the only no carry zones. For many states, including Florida, if you have a concealed weapons permit and it is of nonprofessional status, there is a long list of public places that a weapon can not be carried.

If your company is aware of you carrying, they will be held liable for your actions while you are wearing their uniform. If you are carrying it for personal reasons and have not made your company aware, the company and union may leave you hanging to pay your own legal expenses if something goes wrong or you are caught carrying the weapon in a no carry zone.

This has already be tried in Miami back when the violence in the streets may have justified a gun. You get caught with a gun while in uniform, either Fire or EMS, you lose your weapon and face the penalities for carryng in a no carry zone as well as whatever state laws you have broken for the concealed weapons permit. Also, if you fail to secure your weapon properly when not carrying, you may be held severely responsible for the consequences.

Put serious thought into it before you carry a gun. Just because you think you can doesn't mean you should.

Good video which has been playing alot on TV:

If I Only Had A Gun

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7310933

If you're going to quote one side of the story, you should also look at the 'other side' as well....

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com...y-a-bit-blurry/

[spenac]

Lone as I pointed out that hospitals are no carry zones and that you would have to secure your firearm when entering it, I should also say while I don't think it should be mandatory I do not feel I should be told no I can't defend myself.

[Lone Star]

Lone as I pointed out that hospitals are no carry zones and that you would have to secure your firearm when entering it, I should also say while I don't think it should be mandatory I do not feel I should be told no I can't defend myself.

Spenac,

Like I said in my post, I'm a firm believer in the right to carry. Unless you can get a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) that allows you to carry in 'no carry zones', there's not alot that can or will be done to change things.

In addition to that, if you have to use that firearm while on duty (whether justified or not), why should your employer have to bear the brunt of your actions?

In Michigan, there is the 'Castle Doctrine Act' that simply states that any place you have a legal right to be armed, you have the legal right to use that weapon to defend yourself. There WILL be an investigation, you WILL be arrested, and if it's determined that you were NOT justified, you WILL be charged with a criminal action.

If you're found to be justified in your actions you will not be charged, and you will not be liable for civil damages. The question then remains, will your employer be as 'exempt' as you are if the justified shooting happened while on duty?

If I remember correctly, you were one of the ones speaking out against badges on EMS uniforms because of the associated problems for being mistaken as a law enforcement officer. How many more problems will the EMT (without regard to license level) face by showing up with a pistol on their hip, and looking MORE like a law enforcement officer?

Like I said, I've worked in some of the roughest parts of Detroit while unarmed. Not having a shiny badge on my shirt, or a pistol on my hip allowed me to get into these areas, work unharrassed, and get me, my partner and my patient out without incident.

Another thing that has to be taken into consideration is this:

With as many people that are against handguns (for whatever reason), how are you going to treat a patient if you show up to a home that won't allow you in the door as long as you're armed? (the homeowner has that right as well).

If you secure your weapon in the rig, then enter the house, now you're unarmed anyway; in the very place that you claim that weapon will protect you....

Imagine having to shoot someone while defending yourself. Do you REALLY think that person is now going to give you expressed consent to treat the very wounds you inflicted? I highly doubt that will happen!

Above all that, we come back to the moral/ethical obligation to 'do no harm'. Putting one or more bullets into someone kind of violates that moral/ethical obligation, doesn't it?

[VentMedic]

The lawsuit you mention was one before the fact, not after someone was shot, if I read correctly.

The first lawsuit came when we were being shot at during the riots and the boatlifts in the early 1980s and another one later in the 80s/early 90s. Some of us felt strongly about carrying weapons as I always had a gun while in my POV to and from work. The ambulance companies and a few FDs did provide the employees with secure lockers to store weapons while on duty. During these bad times, the Guard and PD stuck by us even though our trucks took a few bullets. In a way I was glad I didn't have a gun because in the confusion, I don't know who I might have shot. The good guys and the bad guys were all starting to look alike and everyone on the street was carrying some type of weapon. We had enough to do with the medical aspect of the job treating patients who were victims of the violence and getting out of the riot zone to safety.

Edited April 20, 2009 by VentMedic

[Richard B the EMT]

The FDNY, not just the FDNY EMS Command, has written policy that no member of the department, except on-duty Fire Marshals, are to have firearms in possession while in department buildings, or department vehicles. Our Fire Marshals are, per state law (specific item number unavailable as I write this), Police Officers, with full authority to carry the weapon, and make arrests.

[spenac]

If I remember correctly, you were one of the ones speaking out against badges on EMS uniforms because of the associated problems for being mistaken as a law enforcement officer. How many more problems will the EMT (without regard to license level) face by showing up with a pistol on their hip, and looking MORE like a law enforcement officer?

Concealed = unseen.

Badges = seen

Honestly I would not want the majority of people in EMS to have a gun on duty in fact many I wonder if they are mentally stable enough to have one off duty. I am just always amazed at how these discussions go.