Why I am against unions. Auto bail out fails

[UMSTUDENT]

The UAW really isn't the problem here. I have a fresh insight into the auto industry mainly because I have friends and family members on both sides of the argument: management and union.

True, the GM workers who make $29 an hour after a few years on the job need a reduction to reasonable pay terms. Please be assured that most UAW workers do not make that much money.

The real problem with the American auto industry is crappy management who push crappy products. I mean, seriously. Do some serious reading on the current problem and you'll really see what has destroyed this industry: poorly engineered, low quality vehicles. The American auto makers basically left innovation aside and left the American public to test their products. They never listened to the experts who spouted about the inevitable increase in foreign demand for oil, never cared to raise their fuel efficiency standards, and they let the Japanese get 7 years ahead of them in hybrid powertrain technology! Furthermore the American "way" of manufacturing is grossly inefficient and allows for little input from the guys and gals who actually build the cars and trucks we drive: the workers. Only 8-10% of the cost of a vehicle is in labor. 8-10%! Compare that costs to our industry where 50-60% (minimum) of our daily costs are purely in payroll. Compare it to any service based company that currently fuels our economic engine.

The true economics of the auto industry are too far fetched for most Americans to understand. In many regards Detroit created the post-war American middle class. There are entire parts of this country whose economy floats along day-to-day on the "inflated" wages that UAW workers make. Entire generations of kids have been able to go to college and gain the skills their parents didn't have because of the UAW wage. Unfortunately it is a dying breed of jobs and the people who currently work in these positions bridge the gap between our manufacturing past and the present service oriented, build nothing, sell nothing, credit swap economy that we sustain.

I think we must remember that the purpose of any economic transaction is to produce something that can inturn be sold for cash. Service jobs like healthcare really only serve to sustain an economy that produces some form of tangible or intellectual product. When we cease to do this as a country we risk severely stunting our place in a global economy.

[TDP]

First, who is making $8 and hour? Second, why do you have a family of 4 when you are only making 8$ and hour? Are you looking to the union to solve your problems for you? Do you think that just because you work for an employer as a union member they owe you a living?

Both sides are being looked at, and it looks like only one side is taking responsibility.

Edit: I'm not sticking up for Spenac. He's perfectly capable of digging his own holes. :twisted: I just happen to have a similar view.

The average factory worker has 3 or 4 kids I would say,I really don't think most of them go in looking to make 8$ an hour,most line workers start anywhere from 20-25$ when things were up,running and stable. I look at the union like a brotherhood more than anything,so when crap hits the fan,you have your local brothers,trustees to look after you,back you up. That's for trades people,and even Paramedics. Union's don't owe their workers anything but a fighting chance. Like EMS, factory workers,trades people are a family. This whole thing all boils down to who in offices is making the biggest paycheque,no one gives a rats arse about the underdog,hence union.

[Just Plain Ruff]

there are myriad reasons for this situation that the auto industry is in.

consumers

unions

automakers

government

All share at least an equal amount of blame.

consumers who demanded those gas guzzling vehicles with no regards to the cost of the vehicle and the cost of gas. At 4 bucks a gallon I didn't see many Big SUV's on the road.

Unions - who strike at the drop of a hat, who drive up the wages and benefits to an insane amount of money.

Automakers - pushing gas guzzling SUVs and Hummers and resisting the push for more fuel efficiency standards. And many many more reasons that are intangible but very real.

Government - taxes, coporate welfare and all that stuff.

Not sure how much blame to assign each party but in the end we are all at fault for the state of affairs we're in right now.

don't even get me started on the banking bailout.

[CBEMT]

Tell the UAW to give up absurdities like the job bank , and maybe the Big Three would be able to get back into profitability again.

[Just Plain Ruff]

NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not the job bank. Funny thing is if the laid off workers get a job bank then are they truly laid off? The question begs to be answered.,

Ever since I read about the job bank about 15 years ago I have had no sympathy for the workers since they are not suffering, they are getting paid not to work, paid to walk to picket lines and all that.

Sorry but no sympathy from my side of the world.

[TDP]

Instead of bashing the auto industry,lets talk about EMS unions and what they have done for you lately,or are their any unions for providers in the US? hmmmmm

[Just Plain Ruff]

but bashing the auto industry is fun, you notice I did not bash them.

But unions in EMS are not well represented since there really aren't many.

Listen I'm not adverse to unions and workers trying to get everything they can because it's the american way to get what you can come hell or high water.

But I think that the whole deal sucks anyway.

[under-dreaming]

Eight years ago, GM sold the patents to their high output long life batteries for the EV cars to Texaco. Texaco (now Chevron) and GM conspired together and chose to make immediate profits instead of long term commitments to revolutionize the industry. Eight years ago American auto makers were on top of the mountain, holding the key to new technology that would help the consumer's pocket book and the environment. This would cause a dramatic decrease in domestic oil consumption in the form of gasoline. That concept became alarming for oil companies. Domestic auto makers allowed themselves to be corrupted by "fat cat" oil companies in order to turn more profit at a faster rate. And at first it worked. The government even passed a stimulus for small business owners to purchase trucks/SUV with a towing capacity of over 10,000 lbs. to stimulate growth. That's why you see so many Hummers and lifted trucks driving around in dense populated cities. They were practically free for the consumer to purchase because it became a tax write-off as a business expense. The whole point was not to sell cars. The point was to sell gas! Then demand for fuel went up. Naturally, the oil companies are going to have to raise the prices for oil because of the whole supply/demand principle. Oil companies raise the rates --> people start buying hybrids and compacts. Well, foreign auto has the market cornered in regards to compacts and hybrids... so you can see now where the time line progresses.

The UAW probably has absolutely nothing to do with anything in regards to these truths. Therefore, they are victims of this crisis that their corporate management created. The corporate side probably hoped that if it ever came down to them losing their companies to bankruptcy due to their behavior, the people and the government would take pity on them because of the huge amount of labor they represent in America (although much of it is now overseas). It is a sad game that they were playing. I feel sorry for those who work for them and never knew this was coming. The wave is crashing.

[TDP]

a good reason to have a union

[spenac]

a good reason to have a union

Actually that is more proof that unions can harm us. W/o wage concessions there may be no jobs. I'd rather lose some of my pay rather than all of my pay.