This video shows you how to get fired from your EMS job

[DwayneEMTP]

Man...I'm so disappointed by this thread, and even more pissed than disappointed.

Dirtbag? Scumbag? Drunk? How do you know?

You should all go and visit the thread at JEMS on the seizing baby. Dust took on all comers for making such foolish assumptions. Do you automatically assume that a warm baby is a febrile seizure? Only if you’re an idiot. Is every altered black man in your poor neighborhoods a drunk? What about a diabetic emergency? Stroke? Trauma? OD?

And you consider it acceptable behavior to allow an altered pt in your care (And yeah, if you’re not tending a pt nor fearing harm to yourself I consider this your pt) to run into traffic? To fall on their face multiple times before finally declaring “Aha! He’s now sufficiently injured to be worthy of my awesome talents!!” Horseshit.

Every one of you that fails see the issue here needs not bother boring us with your bullshit about, “I just want to help people” anymore. It’s rare that I see someone needing care as badly as this man, yet you revel in his suffering and humiliation.

And I'll guarantee that any of you that can't see the ethics lessons in this video have never had an ethics class. Ethics is all about "what if", "why?", "Why not?" etc....it certainly is a valuable video for that.

It truly makes me sad that so many of you decided that this MAN was just a scumbag drunk without considering other options. And even more sad that once you'd decided that, you felt he was no longer worthy of your care.

How the hell did you get so friggin high and mighty that you can no longer be bothered to dirty your delicate hands on a drunk?

If you can't see that you're way off in the ditch here I pray you never work the streets of my town nor care for my family.

Dwayne

[Eydawn]

I believe the comment about the individual being a drunk came from a post earlier in the thread from someone who is a coworker of the team depicted in the video...

I also believe that other comments in this thread were pertaining to local experiences with drunks and misuse of EMS for individuals not requiring care.

More later... class change.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[pguy280]

I could not agree more with Dwayne on his post. =D> Having been in EMS for 20 years an having my share of calls similiar to this I find it apolling the remarks about where he resides werre made here.(GHETTO) I have dealt with many a prominent patient that appeared in that same condition.and have acted in a similiar fashion.Would we be posting that here???With the same remarks No i do not believe we would.

The initial providers have an obligation to render care to that patient in some form or fashion if not stopping at least calling into dispatch an advising of the situation. Hats off to them for stopping.

These guys also knew they were being taped how many times have you been on tape and not even known it. I found out the hard way during a deposition. Remeber you never know who is watching you. Lets learn from this and be safe out there as I am sure learning some thing was the true intent of the original poster

Brendan McCarthy

EMT-P

[Dustdevil]

My question to everyone else... If you were transporting a stable patient (which is what Monoc had on board) and were flagged down, unknowing the complaint of the potential new patient, would you stop (after all you do have 2 emts, one to assess the new patient and one to remain with the one you already have)? With that, it would initial patient care? Your leaving then could be categorized as abandonment, would it not? Even if it was only an ETOH.

Absolutely no stopping. Especially not for a cop, who has a radio to call for an ambulance with. Not even taxis can stop while loaded. Do you think we should be held to a lesser standard?

I could not agree more with Dwayne on his post.

Ditto.

[CBEMT]

I blame the cop for the face plant, he had the guy by the arm and let him go!

The local urban FD has guys like this they bring in every day, sometimes more than once a day. Then I watch that reality show "Jail," and see the more sane areas of the country (Austin, King Co. WA for example) where this guy would spend the night in a cell instead of wasting my tax dollars in a hospital bed.

Problem is the local urban PD once dropped a frequent drunk off on his front steps, only to find out later he'd developed diabetes and died of hypoglycemia lying on the front porch. That said, though, every jail I've ever seen has a nurse on duty (as in the show) and they can do an assessment if necessary.

[letmesleep]

Man...I'm so disappointed by this thread, and even more pissed than disappointed.

Dirtbag? Scumbag? Drunk? How do you know?

You should all go and visit the thread at JEMS on the seizing baby. Dust took on all comers for making such foolish assumptions. Do you automatically assume that a warm baby is a febrile seizure? Only if you’re an idiot. Is every altered black man in your poor neighborhoods a drunk? What about a diabetic emergency? Stroke? Trauma? OD?

And you consider it acceptable behavior to allow an altered pt in your care (And yeah, if you’re not tending a pt nor fearing harm to yourself I consider this your pt) to run into traffic? To fall on their face multiple times before finally declaring “Aha! He’s now sufficiently injured to be worthy of my awesome talents!!” Horseshit.

Every one of you that fails see the issue here needs not bother boring us with your bullshit about, “I just want to help people” anymore. It’s rare that I see someone needing care as badly as this man, yet you revel in his suffering and humiliation.

And I'll guarantee that any of you that can't see the ethics lessons in this video have never had an ethics class. Ethics is all about "what if", "why?", "Why not?" etc....it certainly is a valuable video for that.

It truly makes me sad that so many of you decided that this MAN was just a scumbag drunk without considering other options. And even more sad that once you'd decided that, you felt he was no longer worthy of your care.

How the hell did you get so friggin high and mighty that you can no longer be bothered to dirty your delicate hands on a drunk?

If you can't see that you're way off in the ditch here I pray you never work the streets of my town nor care for my family.

Dwayne

I totally disagree with Dwayne, pguy280, Dust, and CBEMT.

First of all whats missing is the initial contact made by the first EMS provider. Do we know if he did an exam on this Pt prior to the video starting? It is missing and the fact that NONE of us were there means that as professionals, we have to assume that it was done and it was determined that the Pt was indeed intoxicated. I realize that using the word "assume" could bite me in the ass, but how do you judge this provider without the full story?

Secondly, who called this guy a scumbag or a dirtbag or even a drunk for that matter? If you review the thread, Dwayne was the first to use this terminology. The rest of the posters refer to the Pt being drunk, however never as far as I could see called him a drunk. The only negative verbiage that I saw was the reference to it being in the "ghetto". I will agree that I don't appreciate that term either which is why when I used it in my post, it was placed in quotes.

How easy it is to judge all of us for our impression about this video considering we gave our input based off of the information readily available. The fact that there is incomplete information that you are basing your opinion on is what you have accused most of us (myself included) in other threads of doing. The others simply jumped on the band wagon behind you. The fact is, is that WE as a whole don't know what happened prior to the video being started, I would like to think that this EMS provider did his job by assessing the Pt prior to waiting for the second ambulance. How is the cop to blame for a drunk individual that took off running through the streets, and planted his face in to the rear of a parked ambulance? The cop obviously did NOT have him in custody, and was not taking him in to protective custody. There were NO handcuffs or restraints at all. Is it a crime to be intoxicated? Obviously their system needs to reviewed because we all know that sending an intoxicated individual to the hospital in the back of an ambulance is a waste, but that is for another thread. Where was the "traffic" that this Pt was running in to? As far as I saw the roadway was shut down due to the two ambulances parked in it.

The problem with this thread is that it can be viewed in many different ways for the sake of discussion. I certainly don't have an issue with any of you giving us you opinion about the video, but get off your high horse and accusing the rest of us for things that simply didn't happen or get posted. True they could have strapped this guy down or restrained him with cuffs, but we still get back to the fact that none of us were there and don't have the entire story. I personally don't work in this area so I can't tell you how the public of this neighborhood expects this situation to be handled. It's obvious that one person felt that ore needed to be done, and that another (the guy behind the camcorder) was more than ok with the way it was handled. How many of you work HERE and know for sure what is deemed appropriate for this area? It's real easy to watch this and sit back and judge this EMS provider based off of what we saw on the video, but doesn't that make us back seat drivers?

[Timmy]

There’s minimal information to make a creditable conclusion to this situation.

I must admit, I did jump to the conclusion that the patient was indeed intoxicated.

But who am I to conclude this? For all I know this patient could be hypoglycemic, hypoxic, suffering from a mental condition, closed head injury ect.

I’ve been in plenty of situations were I haven’t assessed every patient. Do I treat/assess every intoxicated patient? No… I’m sure we’ve all been called to a drunken brawl outside a night club/pub/football match, there could be 50 patrons that have been struck in the head, chest, abdomen multiple times but I find myself drawn to the patrons supine on the ground or bleeding profusely. Out of those 50 patrons most will walk away, some will require police intervention and some will require ambulance transport to hospital, whether that be by a responsible adult or EMS.

Out of the majority that will walk away, how do I know that one patron hasn’t been struck in the head causing a subdural hematoma?

I do admit, I sometimes feel intimidated by a group of drunken youths grouping around myself and the patient. I have been in situations were the patient has presented to the ambulance after being assaulted at a concert or youth event only to have a mob of intoxicated youths following him and start fighting right in front of us.

But touché, this situation appeared to be quiet some what different. Police were on scene.

In a change of tune, if I was in situation depicted in the video, providing the patient already in the ambulance is quiet stable and consents to waiting I may do a quick assessment (neuro, BP, Pulse, SP02 and BGL) if this proves nothing out of the ordinary then I’m happy for PD to take custody.

Every situations is different and each person will deal with it in a different manner.

[ConstanceGoodheart]

I had a few comments, especially regarding the race of the EMS crews versus the bystanders and patient in question, but I can't think of how to formulate being that my head is throbbing from a never ending headache.

Regarding the first crew on scene, I do not know what their status was and I only half listened to the initial story when told to me, but its entirely possible they were there picking up a neighbor (or maybe returning them home) when this intoxicated man came out and possibly tossing the crew into a standby to wait for a 2nd unit. Monoc does both 911 and interfacility transport (and I do believe Essex Valley does interfacility as well for EOG, but I do know they definitely handle East Orange 911, and at the time Monoc covered Irvington (where I believe the video was filmed).

[pguy280]

Letmesleep while i truely value your input i have to go on the record and disagree with the video as backing up my statements.

1st your assuming an assesment was done is surely incorrect as i watched the video where near the end all the ems providers dawned there gloves. had an assesment been done would they not still be wearing them.

2 As to posting derogitory statementsI I was refering to anyone who posted them not just the ones i disagree with.

3rd I do not have a high horse only an opion

4th Your correct on not being there an not knowing the whole story

5th Where you work and what you deal with daily should not impact patient care standards. When that happens its time to find another profession or sweek professional help for yourself..

6th I am only basing my statements on what I saw and read here.

Thanks and be safe out there

Brendan.

[letmesleep]

pguy280, and the others that I listed previously. I am not attacking your opinion about the video, I am however questioning your judgement about your fellow posters in regards to not seeing the ethical issues here.

I can honestly say that once a Pt assessment is done it is NOT unheard off to remove your gloves while in a "holding pattern", so no the fact that they had no gloves on may be reasonable. As far as the "standards of care" I would agree with your statement pguy280, however there is a huge difference in dealing with the many different cultures of the US. Dealing with the afro-American in this case is totally different than the rural caucasians I deal with on a daily basis. I have worked both sides of that fence so this opinion is based on true experience.

My point was being made about the issue that previous posters (myself and others) were found to be appalling by those I listed. I still don't understand where, who, why, or how there was any concern with the ethics of these EMS providers. Speaking for myself in regards to district policy, unless they were hit with this situation while handling another, they should have never been there to being with, however, being there commits them to this Pt and expectation of Pt care prevails. No, I was not there, but by the simple fact that they committed themselves to both Pts, they had to act. With that said, I would like to believe that this was the case. I also realize that that may be fantasy rather than reality, but not knowing the full story, and reading what ConstanceGoodheart wrote, I am left with the assumption that an assessment was preformed. I do agree that ANY inflammatory name calling should be called out, I never have understood how people in this field use those terms, and continue to do this job with a second face.