Basic vs. Medic

[Just Plain Ruff]

JP I stand corrected on the search function.

Original poster - I am sorry for bringing the search function up. JP Is right.

[paramedicmike]

edited. .

[sevenball842]

It's all good folks. Having been in the field during the days when the rookies got hazed, and we were told to stand in the corner until spoken to, I have some pretty tough skin. I can take the hits with the best of them, as long as everyone is willing to catch some bullets back, I'm willing to get taken out back and flogged with a 14f whip suction catheter.

[spenac]

Welcome to the city. Yes this topic and the others you proposed have been fought. Since you brought up in part what I said on the High School I just want you to know that I do have respect for EMT-B's and I's. I just found no value from my waiting to go to paramedic school. Everything I learned in many years working as a basic could have been learned as a paramedic or even working as a basic while in paramedic school.

Enjoy the site. Please learn from my mistakes and not make aggressive posts. I started off on the wrong foot with a big time attitude. It really hurts your respect level from others when they feel attacked.

[sevenball842]

I fear you mistake my passion for attitude. I believe that if we do not stand up for what we believe, we have lost our field to glory hounds. I have a deep respect for medicine, and a deep respect for those who fight for it, even those whom I don't agree with. To think that any one of us are "better" than the other simply angers me, that is all I am trying to get across. I'm glad I've sparked such a debate. As long as there are "newbies" like me out there, and "seniors" like you to debate with me, then the topic never really is dead. Although I do concede that this post should have been place under a different, existing thread, the topic itself may never be resolved, and will always be highly debated, don't you?

[JPINFV]

I was reading an earlier post about someone who was taking an EMT course in High school, and he wanted to know if it was a good idea. He was able to pull from that discussion that yes it was. What I was reading though, was an argument that he should go straight to medic school afterwards. I was appalled to hear that there were a few people who discounted basics as inadequate and antiquated.

The problem is that they are. EMT-Basics are expected to operate pretty much independently and without direct supervision in the field, yet are only required to have ~120 hours of training time. If you were to subtract the time needed to just get the foundation courses that should be required of all persons providing patient care (anatomy, physio, math, technical writing), you wouldn't have very much time left in the course. How can someone provide medical care if they don't understand how the body operates when there isn't an insult to it?

Their argument was that there was no knowledge or skill gained by working the field as a basic, and that they were all but a useless body in the field of emergency medicine. I was sickened to hear that these individuals, some who had spent time as a basic, could feel as though emt basics had nothing to offer.

Without a strong base to use those experiences to build upon, how sturdy is that provider going to be?

I am a Paramedic, have been for some time, I was a basic for many many years. In all 18 years under my belt working in EMS. To this day, as both a Paramedic, and field Supervisor, I find my basic EMT's to be both valuable, and grossly under used by many systems. To those who truly believe that they are both better and smarter than basics, I say "SHAME ON YOU!!".

Logical fallacy: appeal to ridicule/personal attack. I can't discuss a point where no point has been made.

We all started as a basic, and it is those "skills" that we rely upon when things go bad. If we miss a line, miss a tube, or miss a diagnosis, we fall back on the experiences we had as basics to care for that patient. When we hit those lines, tube that patient, and nail that diagnosis, it is the experiences we had as basics that allow us to do that. What's the difference between difficulty breathing, and anxiety. M.I. and anxiety? Whats the difference between a swollen reddened lower extremity, and a compound fracture of the tibia?....Experience!! Lets embrace our basics, and offer them the environment to gain very valuable street experience first before we encourage them to become Paramedics. Don't we owe it to our patients to be the very best at every level before moving on? Isn't that why the National registry created different levels who's skills are clearly defined and are vastly different?

How do you explain all of those other fields (physicians, for example) that get by without requiring their members to operate at a lower level then?

[spenac]

I fear you mistake my passion for attitude. I believe that if we do not stand up for what we believe, we have lost our field to glory hounds. I have a deep respect for medicine, and a deep respect for those who fight for it, even those whom I don't agree with. To think that any one of us are "better" than the other simply angers me, that is all I am trying to get across. I'm glad I've sparked such a debate. As long as there are "newbies" like me out there, and "seniors" like you to debate with me, then the topic never really is dead. Although I do concede that this post should have been place under a different, existing thread, the topic itself may never be resolved, and will always be highly debated, don't you?

I do not think anyone is better than someone else. I do think all need better education, our patients deserve that. It would be great to see a day when entry level is paramedic so at least some actual medical care can be given to patients. It is not the fault of the EMT-B,I, or P that the laws and education system has failed them and more importantly failed the ones we are supposed to help. I have been in EMS many years and am only now in Paramedic school and I would fully agree with a Paramedic saying they would rather have another Paramedic helping them. It would be stupid not to want someone of equal education and skill to help on the bad calls.

Sorry I took passion for an attacking attitude. Trust me if you read some of my posts that I am passionate about I to get overly blunt about them.

[sevenball842]

Now that is a very intelligent response, thank you for that. To begin, I do believe that education is key. However, instead of sending people to medic school right after basic class, why not extend class time. I find that when I teach basics, they have a harder time grasping basic skills and information. To flood these folks with even more information, and even more critical skills is dangerous if they don't fully grasp the basics, and have used them to some extent.

Although I see your point when it comes to physicians, I refer to my comment about extending class time. Physicians go through many years of schooling, clinicals, and "practice" . They are expected to show proficiency in each skill before they are allowed to move on. Depending on the EMT class that you take, you may be allowed to fail a chapter or two, and still be allowed to test. I guess if you want to may an argument for moving straight to a medic class, lets elongate each education levels hour requirements, and bounce those less proficient candidates.

Making this field harder to enter, will ensure that only the best providers survive. Lets face it, we work without a net, doing a what a physicians do only on a modified basis.

[sevenball842]

I do not think anyone is better than someone else. I do think all need better education, our patients deserve that. It would be great to see a day when entry level is paramedic so at least some actual medical care can be given to patients. It is not the fault of the EMT-B,I, or P that the laws and education system has failed them and more importantly failed the ones we are supposed to help. I have been in EMS many years and am only now in Paramedic school and I would fully agree with a Paramedic saying they would rather have another Paramedic helping them. It would be stupid not to want someone of equal education and skill to help on the bad calls.

Sorry I took passion for an attacking attitude. Trust me if you read some of my posts that I am passionate about I to get overly blunt about them.

[JPINFV]

Well, if we're going to extend their class time (which it looks like we're both in agreement that there should be more class time), why not just educate them all the way to paramedic than?

While it is true that they're required to show proficiency in their education (it's not a skill) as they advance (The US Medical Licensing Exam comes in 4 steps (including part 2: Clinical Skills) with the first one being after the classroom/science years. That said, the USMLE is more than a simple pass/fail exam since the scores help determine residencies), there are contingencies in place if they don't pass a course though.

Also, it isn't so much about making it harder to enter (which leads to the assumption that people who got their slice are just trying to defend it), but making sure that those that do enter the field have the educational and training background to be useful past "call medics, high flow O2, transport immediately." It's about providing good medical care, not necessarily who has the bigger gonads (which is how this conversation gets misconstrued as medics vs basics).