types of paramedic classes

[Doug]

Ventmedic "You can just tell" is not proof. Sorry, I may even agree with you, but it's not proof.

And my medic class was 2000 hours.

[VentMedic]

Ventmedic "You can just tell" is not proof. Sorry, I may even agree with you, but it's not proof.

And my medic class was 2000 hours.

Do you think that all the other professions that lobbied for higher education standards did not do their homework? It is an expensive endeavor to raise standards in all 50 states but one that presents a return in reimbursement and professionalism. I think the insurance companies and law makers in Washington D.C. have also done their observations of the 48 different "certs" for EMS. It is no secret that until EMS gets over its identity conflicts to establish a definition for what its providers do and who they are, there is little they can do to help EMS providers in terms of reimbursement.

How many researchers represent prehospital medicine with just a Paramedic credential? How many scientific journals do you see lying around the station? Usually EMTs and Paramedics wait for the watered down version in JEMS instead of trying to read a study in NEJM or JAMA.

If your paramedic program was 2000 hours in length, which is almost 18 months, why are you still arguing for less education? How much of that is solid education and how much is "training"? How much is "ride time" which can be 1 patient contact in 12 hours? I also posted on another thread where Florida actually had to make a statement that "ride time" on an ALS engine was not the same as caring for a pt in a transport vehicle all the way to the hospital. EMS still has to count hours of training instead of quality of education with degree minimums and what constitutes "clinicals" with actual patient contact performing x amount of procedures. If you want to compare hours, many RN, RT and RRT programs have 1500 hours of just clinicals with multilple patient contacts besides all the book learnin'. I could also mention, again, the other therapies that require no less than a Bachelors with many requiring at least a Masters. PT is now at the doctorate level. The only time these professionals count hours is for continuing education which might be well over 100 hours per year besides the mandatory.

[Ridryder 911]

Ventmedic "You can just tell" is not proof. Sorry, I may even agree with you, but it's not proof.

And my medic class was 2000 hours.

Let's turn the tables... You prove to me requiring an education is more harmful or has poor benefits. As well having ignorant & non-educated personal provides better care than those that do. Hmmm.. Well again let's review the medical hierarchy. As Vent described, even Physical Therapy now requires a Doctrate level.

Anyone that announces that their class was in clock "hours" were trained not educated. Again, much difference in philosophy in teaching, and expectations of outcomes.

Something we should address. Trade/vocation versus professional services. Trade/vocation (blue collar) are usually trained not educated, thus the reason not requiring additional courses such Psychology, Mathematics, etc. As well no real formal in-depth classes are performed such as requiring thesis, research, and presentations. Rather trade/vocation are usually based upon simplistic objectives that focus upon a skill rather than knowledge or exploration past that.

If we are to get past the image of a trade, we must embrace the requirements and challenges of becoming a profession. It is only when we actually start completing those elements then we can expect the benefits such as a decent salary, better hours, working conditions, respect from professional peers and even the public.

R/r 911

[ccmedoc]

Can anyone here show, with documented proof not just imperical knowledge, that getting a degree results in better EMS providers? It seems every other arguement on this site eventually boils down to "Don't just say it, prove it." except this one. I'm not saying that it does or doesn't help. I just request proof.

In my opinion makeing a degree worthwhile would require a major reworking of the education system first, targeted and applicable courses as opposed to the bizarre core requirements some colleges impose.

Would you be willing to correlate the studies for nursing and additional education to that of EMS. I seriously doubt that any studies for EMS and the advantage of increasing education are available, since advancing the educational standards is a relatively new concept for EMS.

Although I firmly believe that Nursing and EMS are very different, I think a bit of insight can be gleaned from articles such as this..

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/290/12/1617

If increasing the education for nurses decreases patient mortality, I have to believe that it is a small reach to apply this to EMS.

[Mateo_1387]

I have to say, as someone who got their 4 year degree in an unrelated field before becoming a Paramedic, a lot of college courses are timewasters . Sorry it's the truth.

Don't get me wrong , continued education is important, and should be incouraged, but it should be in a related field.

Instead of Psych 101 classes have a course on psych emergencies and how diffuse situations.

Instead of English Lit. how about a simple course in journal or observational writing.

I thought I would be nice and go ahead and describe from your post how the current medic mill classes are.

Instead of Psych 101 classes have a course on psych emergencies and how diffuse situations.

This is exactly the problem, too many people are trained, not educated.

Instead of English Lit. how about a simple course in journal or observational writing.

I guess we can keep dumbing it down for the least common denominator.

I do think that a class in professional report writing should be mandatory.

Instead of Art History or some other humanities course a course in cultural awareness including religion.

Why not both? It will make you a better person, and it will make you appreciate the art your patient have in their houses.

[VentMedic]

Would you be willing to correlate the studies for nursing and additional education to that of EMS. I seriously doubt that any studies for EMS and the advantage of increasing education are available, since advancing the educational standards is a relatively new concept for EMS.

Although I firmly believe that Nursing and EMS are very different, I think a bit of insight can be gleaned from articles such as this..

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/290/12/1617

If increasing the education for nurses decreases patient mortality, I have to believe that it is a small reach to apply this to EMS.

And let me add Respiratory Therapy's position on education from its NATIONAL organization.

http://www.aarc.org/resources/bacc_edu/index.asp

The RRT credential is the standard of excellence for respiratory therapists. Evidence-based research documents the value of critical thinking, problem solving and advanced patient assessment skills. Therefore we encourage all respiratory therapists to pursue and obtain the Registered Respiratory Therapist (RRT) credential. • We support the development of baccalaureate and graduate education in respiratory care and encourage respiratory therapists to pursue advanced levels of education.

The references to the evidence-based research documents are at the end of the article.

The article also addresses the problems in increasing educational standards but, again, it was able to pass the Associates degree as mandatory for entry level testing at the national level.

Respiratory Therapy is about the same age if not younger than the Paramedic and EMT. I started RT as an OJT while also a Paramedic. I quickly had to get an Associates degree to stay competitive in the profession and to maintain licensure. That is besides having another Associates degree in EMS as a Paramedic. Only the general studies and a few sciences were similar.

[Mateo_1387]

Ventmedic "You can just tell" is not proof. Sorry, I may even agree with you, but it's not proof.

Absurd.

You can just tell should be proof enough. I guess if you wanted "proof," you could observe the medic for competence(not quite proof but so freggin close its not funny), then walk up and ask him or her if they are a degreed paramedic, or just a medic mill paramedic.

[VentMedic]

Absurd.

You can just tell should be proof enough. I guess if you wanted "proof," you could observe the medic for competence(not quite proof but so freggin close its not funny), then walk up and ask him or her if they are a degreed paramedic, or just a medic mill paramedic.

It is not just a matter of competency but the way they present themselves as well as communicate to other professionals. Those that are defensive when asked a question are usually just showing insecurity about their own education and cannot come up with a reasonable answer except "that's what my protocol says".

[ccmedoc]

I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.

If you want to succeed and be respected by your peers, be given more responsibility and the "skills" everyone seems to base EMS on...you have to prove you have what it takes to thoroughly understand and use them..

--just sayin'

[Doug]

Where are you folks getting your Physical Therapy from that it requires an MD or Ph.d? Certainly not in Massachusetts.

While you seem to be arguing that Training does not equal Education, I am arguing that a Degree does not equal Competence. My point in all this is that merely attending a degree program does not nessesaraly make a better medic. My program was 2000 hours minimum (granted 200 hours of which was mandatory ride time, so you may be allowed to state it was 1800 hours, my apologies it was not intended to mislead.) At the end of my program I was contacted by the deans office and told that due to my Bachelors degree I qualified to transfer credits and get my degree in Applied Health, wait for it...for an additional fee of course. My point is what is the worth of that degree? To me, nothing.

I again say that I don't DISAGREE that we need more education, but to simply say "We need a degree" is simplistic. What we need is a reworking of the higher education system and for students to stand up and demand that the courses they take are relevant. As it is undergraduate progams in most colleges are nothing more than grades 13-16.