letmesleep

SHOCKING!!

well then Lonestar.....please en"lighten" me

Maybe its time to switch to another

pguy280, and the others that I listed previously. I am not attacking your opinion about the video, I am however questioning your judgement about your fellow posters in regards to not seeing the ethical issues here.

I can honestly say that once a Pt assessment is done it is NOT unheard off to remove your gloves while in a "holding pattern", so no the fact that they had no gloves on may be reasonable. As far as the "standards of care" I would agree with your statement pguy280, however there is a huge difference in dealing with the many different cultures of the US. Dealing with the afro-American in this case is totally different than the rural caucasians I deal with on a daily basis. I have worked both sides of that fence so this opinion is based on true experience.

My point was being made about the issue that previous posters (myself and others) were found to be appalling by those I listed. I still don't understand where, who, why, or how there was any concern with the ethics of these EMS providers. Speaking for myself in regards to district policy, unless they were hit with this situation while handling another, they should have never been there to being with, however, being there commits them to this Pt and expectation of Pt care prevails. No, I was not there, but by the simple fact that they committed themselves to both Pts, they had to act. With that said, I would like to believe that this was the case. I also realize that that may be fantasy rather than reality, but not knowing the full story, and reading what ConstanceGoodheart wrote, I am left with the assumption that an assessment was preformed. I do agree that ANY inflammatory name calling should be called out, I never have understood how people in this field use those terms, and continue to do this job with a second face.

Man...I'm so disappointed by this thread, and even more pissed than disappointed.

Dirtbag? Scumbag? Drunk? How do you know?

You should all go and visit the thread at JEMS on the seizing baby. Dust took on all comers for making such foolish assumptions. Do you automatically assume that a warm baby is a febrile seizure? Only if you’re an idiot. Is every altered black man in your poor neighborhoods a drunk? What about a diabetic emergency? Stroke? Trauma? OD?

And you consider it acceptable behavior to allow an altered pt in your care (And yeah, if you’re not tending a pt nor fearing harm to yourself I consider this your pt) to run into traffic? To fall on their face multiple times before finally declaring “Aha! He’s now sufficiently injured to be worthy of my awesome talents!!” Horseshit.

Every one of you that fails see the issue here needs not bother boring us with your bullshit about, “I just want to help people” anymore. It’s rare that I see someone needing care as badly as this man, yet you revel in his suffering and humiliation.

And I'll guarantee that any of you that can't see the ethics lessons in this video have never had an ethics class. Ethics is all about "what if", "why?", "Why not?" etc....it certainly is a valuable video for that.

It truly makes me sad that so many of you decided that this MAN was just a scumbag drunk without considering other options. And even more sad that once you'd decided that, you felt he was no longer worthy of your care.

How the hell did you get so friggin high and mighty that you can no longer be bothered to dirty your delicate hands on a drunk?

If you can't see that you're way off in the ditch here I pray you never work the streets of my town nor care for my family.

Dwayne

I totally disagree with Dwayne, pguy280, Dust, and CBEMT.

First of all whats missing is the initial contact made by the first EMS provider. Do we know if he did an exam on this Pt prior to the video starting? It is missing and the fact that NONE of us were there means that as professionals, we have to assume that it was done and it was determined that the Pt was indeed intoxicated. I realize that using the word "assume" could bite me in the ass, but how do you judge this provider without the full story?

Secondly, who called this guy a scumbag or a dirtbag or even a drunk for that matter? If you review the thread, Dwayne was the first to use this terminology. The rest of the posters refer to the Pt being drunk, however never as far as I could see called him a drunk. The only negative verbiage that I saw was the reference to it being in the "ghetto". I will agree that I don't appreciate that term either which is why when I used it in my post, it was placed in quotes.

How easy it is to judge all of us for our impression about this video considering we gave our input based off of the information readily available. The fact that there is incomplete information that you are basing your opinion on is what you have accused most of us (myself included) in other threads of doing. The others simply jumped on the band wagon behind you. The fact is, is that WE as a whole don't know what happened prior to the video being started, I would like to think that this EMS provider did his job by assessing the Pt prior to waiting for the second ambulance. How is the cop to blame for a drunk individual that took off running through the streets, and planted his face in to the rear of a parked ambulance? The cop obviously did NOT have him in custody, and was not taking him in to protective custody. There were NO handcuffs or restraints at all. Is it a crime to be intoxicated? Obviously their system needs to reviewed because we all know that sending an intoxicated individual to the hospital in the back of an ambulance is a waste, but that is for another thread. Where was the "traffic" that this Pt was running in to? As far as I saw the roadway was shut down due to the two ambulances parked in it.

The problem with this thread is that it can be viewed in many different ways for the sake of discussion. I certainly don't have an issue with any of you giving us you opinion about the video, but get off your high horse and accusing the rest of us for things that simply didn't happen or get posted. True they could have strapped this guy down or restrained him with cuffs, but we still get back to the fact that none of us were there and don't have the entire story. I personally don't work in this area so I can't tell you how the public of this neighborhood expects this situation to be handled. It's obvious that one person felt that ore needed to be done, and that another (the guy behind the camcorder) was more than ok with the way it was handled. How many of you work HERE and know for sure what is deemed appropriate for this area? It's real easy to watch this and sit back and judge this EMS provider based off of what we saw on the video, but doesn't that make us back seat drivers?

Leave it......i prefer yankee tea......2 tickets to a Cardinals baseball game

I think thats where my confusion is, any brain with 2 working cells can tell that it is being recorded by some joe blow on the street who was excited to have received a new camcorder for their birthday. I just don't understand how this video is being used as an ethical aid, or even why anybody was smacked on the hand for the goings on of this scene. I also get the "ghetto" reference in regards to brutality, which I saw none of, so again I ask, where did ethics get challenged here?

ConstanceGoodheart, I'm not attacking you, just need some more input from the OP to possibly understand the thought process behind posting this video the way it was............

Yes. It might be several years, however... my long term career goals include getting my RN-BSN and my paramedic. Not sure which order yet; that will hinge on whether or not I get into the accelerated BSN program right away. If not, then I'm planning to work and go to paramedic school...

Wendy, based off of this statement alone, I'm going to say NO your not a poser. You have a plan in place and from what I can tell of your 1000+ posts here in the city, you are going in to this job with more education and knowledge than your typical EMT course grad. You are definitely NOT one of those "LIFERS" that have been discussed in many threads posted here in the city. We have had a few debates and conversations here in my short city Hx, and I personally have respect for you and your intelligence. I will also state that I have learned from your posts as well, good luck with the new job!

POSER? I think not!

I guess I'm a little confused why this is used as an ethics teaching aid. The Pt was being escorted by the police officer to the ambulance when he decided to run off. How is that an ethical issue? It appeared that when he became injured, the EMS crews attended to him, and he then started to run again nearly running in to the side of the second ambulance, all the while refusing to allow an escort. It also appeared that the EMS crews were dealing with their public effectively, yes, the one (lady) voice sounded upset about the situation, however was not overbearing.

What were the ethics in question here?

Not really though...if the EMT-I is the highest provider o/s, then they have all the responsability as the highest level of care.

The same could be said for an EMT in a BLS system, but why do we settle for this? I find it funny that none of the EMTs who have responded to this post have even tried to answer that question with any valid answer other than they simply choose to. The EMT-I level is, in my opinion, an example of laziness. I can hear it at the registration counter now...."No, No, I want to be a medic, but not a complete or full medic. I'd like to push some drugs, but I don't want to know anything about them really." or "I want all the glory that those medics get," (yeah right) "but I don't want to go through all that schooling to get it."

Personally, I'll take the EMT-lifer over a lazy ass EMT-I any day!

So true Vent.....................

I wish. In my area, any medical director who suggested such a test would be replaced before it could ever take place. Hell, they'd be replaced just for proposing the idea that they should be more than a signature on a supply order form.

Why? What is wrong with a medical director insuring that those he/she are governing are up-to-date, educated, and for lack of a better term, at the top of their game? They are working under that medical directors license, so what is the harm done with this type of insurance? We do an annual skills review here and are tested on ACLS, airway, MEDS, and even assessment and back boarding, anything that we may do. If someone is having issues with a skill or "knowledge of" they are sat down and reeducated on it. Our medical director governs over multiple agencies county wide, this insures that we are all preforming on the same level and mutual aid runs smoothly, on top of other issues.

I once again post my position, admittedly without documentation to support, when an FD agency CHOOSES to increase their lifesaving efforts by including EMS, it usually is successful, but when others outside the agency TELL them they are to take on EMS responsibilities, due to resentment of being told what they "have to do", rebel in numerous ways against it.

Could this be why so many "failed" this test?

Actually, until such time as they get to the bottom of this failure rate, I agree with the OLMC doctor that pulling the meds is, regrettably, the proper course of action.

With all due respect Richard, would this just be making an excuse for this particular group of medic/ FFs? I'm not damning the system as a whole (at least here), just this group. What would be the difference if it was a FF test that they failed, in regards to this statement?

=D> :lol:/ =D> :-({|= =D> :lol:/ =D>

It looks to me that there are plenty of us, here, who all agree (EMT and medic) that there is just not enough education given in the basic course, as 4kids stated. I will ask then, if we know this then why don't we continue to the medic level and get a more advanced education about the job we do? I also will add that stopping or even going on to the EMT-I level is a waste of your time. go all the way! If we are not getting the education out of the EMT course there should be, then there is no reason to stop and just say "I'm good with this license". How can any one of us, especially the EMT lifers, argue that education is the key if you stop at the most basic level in our field?

Personally, the act of changing a light blub should be taken very serious due to many risks involved. One should take caution to first turn the switch off as to not get electrocuted, but with that comes the safety of being on a secure ladder so that you don't fall and potentially harm yourself. Some other issues would be the grip strength used to unscrew the old bulb then insert and screw in the new bulb for one could exert to much pressure and possibly break the new lamp and cut themselves. When dealing with a ceiling fan one should also be concerned about the fan blades because those little bastards can hurt when the hit you in the head, however, the power should be off thus eliminating this a potential problem.

Now with my extensive knowledge of said "lightblubs" I would have to say that I have found that there is only one that I prefer, and that is going to be the GE brand fluorescent bulb (you know the cork-screw looking thing). Now I'm sure somebody else here in the city will ridicule me for this opinion, but they should remember that I AM RIGHT, so any argument on this issue is nonsense, and they should stand down with any further input.

Here is the bulb that I am discussing as a reference: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2CEJ3

I found this on Google

Now for the sake of discussion would this bulb be called a "light bulb" or a "lightbulb" or a "fluorescent bulb"? Personally I believe it should be called a fluorescent bulb because of the "longer life" (in regards to lighting) it provides, making it superior, and therefore worthy of a "higher licensure" for lack of a better term. The problem is that some will choose a bulb under the pretense of religion, culture, and yada yada. One should take caution with this means of making a choice as I have already stated that your decision will be wrong because I AM STILL RIGHT!

Well, originally it was, but for reasons of -- [choose at least one] hygiene, religious law, ethnic tradition, barbaric superstition -- it was removed. :wink:

LMAO!!! I think we can add to that list now........which one is "perfect"?

I'm starting to think this argument is full of shit. Are BSN's not to be considered professional now too? It's possible to get a PhD in Nursing- the highest level of education in the nursing profession. Why aren't the BSN's interested in moving up instead of "just" staying at BSN? Why are PAs content to stay at Physician "Assistant"? Don't they want to be ACTUAL physicians? Any PA that doesn't is clearly not worthy of our respect. Right?

I wrote this so I will respond to this "full of shit" statement. YES, if they have a chance to advance in their particular field of choice (having a type A personality, which is the entire comment) then why stop? The difference here is that I was discussing OUR FIELD.

Considering the state of OUR profession, or lack there of, why are we content with staying at the lowest level of licensure? What is so fascinating about being the one who drives and cleans? Unless you work for a BLS system thats pretty much whats going to be expected out of you. I will restate that I'm NOT against having the EMT level, but WHY STOP THERE? What is the thought process to be a career EMT if EMS is the career that you choose for yourself? WHY?

Ok time to add a little fuel to the fire: :twisted:

To the people that support doing away with emt certs:

1. What do you do with the already certified emts?

Are they now unemployed? If not then what do you do with them?

2. If they are required to upgrade to paramedic can they work while going to school.

The cost of this would be paid for by whom? If the emts can't work they will have no money for school.

Will there be enough schools to handle this influx of students, or will we be creating medic mills?

That just teach what you need to pass national registry.

To the people that support keeping emt certification:

Should the education requirements be increased to teach advanced assessment skills.

Just some food for thought, we can complain all day long but unless we come up with answers to our questions. We sound like a bunch of whinebags on ritalin.

I see where your heading here, but I still want to know why it is that EMTs that stay EMTs do this.

If you eliminate the cert today, then I'd say that "working" EMTs should be allowed to continue working with a time frame to complete their degree. If their employer has the education benefits available and the EMT qualifies for them (with the company/ district), and the employer wants to hang on to this employee, then there is the money. If this is not the situation then it will get back to it being a "personal goal" for lack of a better term. How many medics here paid their way through school to obtain their license? For that reason alone I think the question is moot!

I guess I don't understand the thought process behind NOT wanting to be at the top. As EMS professionals we are known as being and having a type A personality, do we not? With such a profound personality, how is it that any of us choose to stop trying to be the highest licensure known to our profession? Why do some of us get so comfy with being second best? It amazes me how personal some of the "die hard" EMTs on this thread are getting, and spend so much time and energy explaining that they "can't change" because it is what it is, and telling the medics here that they will "save" us one day. How do you plan on saving me other than taking a bullet, or stepping in front of that speeding car so it misses me all together? Will you save me by placing an airway? Carrying equipment? Washing the floor of the truck when the call is done?

As I have stated, I have been working with my partner for quite some time now, and we are family. She has been an EMT for approx 18 years now, but is finishing up her medic degree within the next year. It took her some time to realize that she needed to continue to the next phase of her career (and yes, I did push a bit), but she is getting it done. EMT level is a necessary part of this job, but it is a step on the way up the ladder. Why place the ladder in front of you if you are only going to stand on the first rung?

Makes NO sense to me!

No one ever reacted violently while getting alcohol up their nose. Not in my experience. Hoewever they did wake up.

No one ever filed a complaint either. I think it's typically American to have a lawyer in every corner of the street waiting to take medics to court. You couldn't disagree that a lot of procedures you do aren't needed, but done as a precaution, as prescribed by the book, so that you are covered in case of trouble. Look at the paperwork that you have to do, just so you can't get caught if you're taken to court. When you cross the borders you'll see a big difference in mentality. People get what they need to stay out of trouble, not what what the medic needs to give, so he doesn't get into trouble.

Our little technique may not be the most elegant way of dealing with fakers, but it works just fine. I don't even consider it an important issue. I find it interesting that you guys react predictably and exactly the way an American would react. Like it's soooo out of this world. That's how we know you guys....Americans are the one who would request a plastic surgeon the stitch a simple laceration, they are the ones that expect us to come lights and sirens when they break a leg, they prepare letters to sue the hotels when they fall down a slippery floor, they react hysterical to blood... Do you know how many medical professionals would refuse to ever work in your country just because of the tiredsome way of overreacting to everything?

We don't use alcohol to determine the level of consciousness. It isn't some sort of punishment either. It's an effective stimulus for the patient to wake up.

We're not talking about South America or Africa either. We are in the Dutch Antilles and most of our medics, including me, are trained in the Netherlands and Belgium, were they have excellent EMS systems. I've asked different physicians, nurses and paramedics in both of these countries about this subjection, as I do evaluate my actions seriously. They all said basically the same: it's not nice, but it's harmless. Hey, we all know how Americans can overreact...

Why are you so hell bent on this being an "AMERICAN" thing? I don't care where your from, or where I practice medicine. You little trick is unnecessary, painful, torturous, and has NO place in an ambulance. this is a MEDIC speaking to you as well, it has nothing to do with being AMERICAN.

There is a medical distinction. We've all heard about people having

guts or balls, but do you really know the difference between them? In

an effort to keep you informed, the definitions are listed below:

GUTS - Is arriving home late after a night out with the guys, being

met by your wife with a broom, and having the guts to ask: ''Are you

still cleaning, or are you flying somewhere?''

BALLS - Is coming home late after a night out with the guys, smelling

of perfume and beer, lipstick on your collar, slapping your wife on

the butt and having the balls to say: ''You're next, fatty.''

I hope this clears up any confusion on the definitions. Medically

speaking, there is no difference in the outcome, since both

ultimately result in death.

Let us first not make the mistake that I do not support my own. As a volunteer who is quite comfortable Not getting paid for doing the same job as any career or paid EMT and/ or medic out there, you are NOT my own. Just so we are clear on that issue! As long as you choose to do this for nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling inside, you continue to harm and take away jobs from those of us who made this profession a career. Secondly, If you (and I am talking about all of those volunteers in NJ) would think for half a second outside the box, you would realize that the wonderful state that you are helping to save money for, is TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOU! As long as you and your people continue to volunteer they will not see a need to change to a paid system. Now If I read correctly in your first post today, you mentioned something along the lines of NOT wanting to hear about how bad the NJ system is, am I correct? This leads me to believe that you knowingly participate in a system that is below par. If this is the case then you automatically are not being respected within your own state. What can you do to fix this? Is there a way for you to be more involved in your state to correct this, and possibly better the system for those that you so willing serve for free? I'm going to go out on a limb and say NO, because this is a HOBBY! You admitted yourself that you have a full-time job elsewhere, and don't need EMS to pay the bills. The unfortunate issue here is that we (me and you) have gotten off of the original topic that this post was about to discuss a very dead issue. Volunteering harms this profession, and until you begin to open your eyes that you are being taken advantage of by your state legislators, you will never understand why.

Now getting back to the issue of EMTs. I never once in this thread said anything about them being lazy (although I have said it before elsewhere about EMT-I) or ignorant. I don't understand why anyone would pick a career, and stop their education to remain at the bottom of the food chain. We all transport sprains and head colds, so why shouldn't we have as much knowledge about how we are handling those Pts as possible? Don't they deserve that? If you truly want to serve those citizens (either for free or not) then give them 100%, provide them with a medic who can administer pain control, and other comfort measures when they have that sprain, instead of just slapping a splint on and bouncing them down the road in the back of your TRUCK.

Dust, are you telling Harold1 that this treatment in his situation is like this?

or maybe this?

Sounds about right to me!

paramistress wrote:

"Just because I choose not to become a medic does not make me any less of a medical professional than anyone else."

Actually yes it does for this very instance, A Paramedic is a higher level professional than you are as an EMT.

paramistress wrote:

"In fact, one could argue that volunteers are more dedicated than those getting paid to work in the field."

How appropriate a statement considering the date tomorrow!!!!

The dedication argument is moot, I too have dedicated my life, and the lives of my family to my career. The fact that you do this for FREE shows people that there are those out there willing to do it cheaper than what I would cost them. There is NO difference than taking your full-time job and out sourcing it to a third world country in the name of saving money. You want to give back to the community and feel good about yourself, go pick up trash along the highway or volunteer to read to an elementary class once in a while. Why do you not want to get paid for your "dedication"? If they offered you a check, would you cash it? Your right, as it stands, "one size does not fit all", but lets ask why that is?