AMR and Piners vote to strike in northern California

[MadAxe]

Been reading long?

Nobody said they would jump in and save the day. We said that if the medics went out on strike that the FD would jump in. The medics didn't strike. You're claiming victory for something that nobody ever predicted.

I suppose you predicted 9/11 and the Tsunami too? :roll:

Ahh, sarcasm. Tremendous! Let me try and respond to such cutting insight with my own humble observations.

You and several others in this thread bemoaned the 'foolishness' of these medics and made all sorts of predictions that they'd all lose their jobs, that the Big Red Machine would step in and take over, that the public wouldn't stand for it, etc. etc. All of you were wrong. All of you ignored the arguments presented in favor of your pre-established opinions, largely based on an ethical standpoint that it was wrong to 'endanger the public'.

What I said was that if the employees of Piners stood together, the Powers That Be would fold and concede to their demands (or at least agree to arbitration), rather than risk the cessation of services. I argued that Fire could not step in because they'd require such an infusion of cash and resources as to make it pointless - it would have been easier and cheaper to just give the medics what they were asking for.

My whole point was that there wouldn't even be a strike if the employees stood together, and got even a shred of solidarity from their colleagues, especially those at companies like AMR. The politicians of today will never risk it. They'll cave, every time. Which is exactly what ended up happening.

I predicted it because I have some knowledge about about labour relations and EMS. You obviously don't.

[Just Plain Ruff]

good post Madaxe

I do not agree that management will cave every time though. I've seen it too many times where they didn't cave. But I do agree that solidarity on the labor front is a tremendous asset to have and more often than not with even the remotest threat of losing their jobs labor will cave first and continue to work in the crappy conditions.

Our service tried to unionize and it was basically quashed by management but then again, we did not have union support behind us.

[MadAxe]

Yes they will go out of business hence the Fire services and big conglomerate services such as AMR and MEdTrans and others to come in and pick up the pieces at a rock bottom price. So yes they will go out of business but not quickly.

Okay, so let's surmise that Mom and Pop's Ambulance service goes under because it can't afford to pay it's staff a wage that's competitive with other agencies. So what happens then? The area just does without EMS coverage? Of course not. Other arrangements will be made. The public will demand it, and the politicians will make it happen.

So let's say Fire wants to take it over. Okay, great. They'll need enhancements to their staff and budgets at least as large as the service that just folded. They can't simply pull personnel off an engine company or rescue squad, because that then leaves them short-staffed on the fire suppression side. Since their fire-suppression numbers contribute to a municipalities ISO data and insurance premiums, that will not be tolerated. No matter how you slice it, they're going to have to hire more staff.

If they hire 'firefighters' and simply put them onto the ambulance, they'll doubtless command significantly higher wages than the medics they've replaced, as they'll be trained to wear two hats. If they decide to form a secondary EMS division within the Fire Dept, and just hire medics... well, who do you think they'll hire? Out of towners? Ordinary Joe's off the street? No, it'll the medics who were just laid off by Mom and Pop's ambulance! So now they're working for a municipal agency, probably getting vastly improved wages and benefits. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Option number 2 - Another private company is contracted to provide service. Okay. So who is that company going to staff their trucks with? They certainly don't have a bunch of salaried employees on the payroll sitting around doing nothing - they're going to have to hire a bunch of new staff willing to work in the area in question. Once again, all the people just laid off by Mom and Pop's are going to be the best candidates.

Now of course, there is the risk of losing things like seniority, vacation and benefits, etc. when getting laid off and hired on with a totally new company. But that's where an organized approach comes in. A strong union will be able to negotiate with the incoming company to secure the benefits that stand to be lost in the transition. That's fairly standard business practice in other sectors. The incoming company will simply have to account for that in their bid for the contract with the local government. If they refuse to do so, then its up to the employees to stand together and refuse to join the new company. Said company will never be able to meet its service obligations without them, and so once again the politicians will step in to save the day, and their political careers.

This isn't anything revolutionary. This has been standard practice within the labour movement for decades. The problem is that EMS is such a new industry, and has been run by such Mickey Mouse outfits for so long that we're all unused to it. But it works, dammit! Just have faith in each other and we can all look forward to huge improvements in working conditions.

[MadAxe]

I do not agree that management will cave every time though. I've seen it too many times where they didn't cave. But I do agree that solidarity on the labor front is a tremendous asset to have and more often than not with even the remotest threat of losing their jobs labor will cave first and continue to work in the crappy conditions.

Our service tried to unionize and it was basically quashed by management but then again, we did not have union support behind us.

In the event that management decides to hang tough, it will become a matter of public pressure. Every EMS manager governs at the pleasure of their political masters. They are ultimately responsible to the elected officials for providing the service for which they've been contracted. If they fail to do so (because their employees have legally walked off the job) then their necks are on the chopping block. They'll cave.

But let's say a manager isn't just being obstinate, and they really can't afford to offer a raise. Okay, fine. They're still going to have to go to the politicians and explain why their ambulances are sitting empty. If they can make their case that they simply can't afford to pay their staff enough to keep them on the job, you can bet the politicians will come up with a solution. Either by funding that manager themselves, or bringing in another agency to do the job. As I've stated above, another agency is likely going to have to hire those very same workers themselves.

From a worker's standpoint, they'll ultimately get what they want, if they stick together.

EMS isn't alone in having difficulty unionizing. Look at the nightmare WalMart employees have been going through. It's not always easy. WalMart was willing to close an entire store - a multimillion dollar loss for their bottom line, just to keep a union from getting their foot in the door.

But the difference between us and WalMart is that no government will ever be able to do without EMS. They can't just shut an agency down - not without opening the door to another agency. In this relationship, its the EMS workers themselves who have the power, so long as we open our eyes to that fact.

Like any other business, EMS management hates organized labour, because it forces them onto a level playing field with its workers. They'll try every tactic they can, legal and illegal, to intimidate their employees into abandoning the union process. They stand to reap far greater profits off your back if they can do so.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Mad I'm not arguing the validity of your posts, not in the least.

I agree, the former employees are the best candidates for the job hands down.

I was involved in a situation where the mom and pop went under, the county they covered cancelled their license to run in the city. AMR came in, didn't hire any of their people, brought in all their own people with lots of overtime, heck I worked 4 24 hour shifts in a row(12 on 12 sleeping) and we covered it fine.

But this service was so unliked in the community and their medics/emt's were so anti AMR that neither AMR nor the previous services employees wanted to have them work there.

So the big guys AMR And the like can pull from their current resources if they need to until they conduct some sort of hiring process.

I hope that made sense.

You sound like someone to have on labor's side in negotiations. sounds liek you are a true pro labor guy. (I assume you are a guy but forgive me for that assumption if you are not).

[Dustdevil]

You and several others in this thread bemoaned the 'foolishness' of these medics and made all sorts of predictions that they'd all lose their jobs, that the Big Red Machine would step in and take over, that the public wouldn't stand for it, etc. etc. All of you were wrong. All of you ignored the arguments presented in favor of your pre-established opinions, largely based on an ethical standpoint that it was wrong to 'endanger the public'.

You are still misquoting both me and you. Whether or not you are doing so intentionally is in question.

That is NOT what I predicted. And it is NOT what you predicted either. Quit trying to take credit for something you never said. And quit trying to say I was wrong about something I never said. Drop your party-line agenda long enough to actually read what was said and quit making ASSumptions and misquoting me.

[MadAxe]

I was involved in a situation where the mom and pop went under, the county they covered cancelled their license to run in the city. AMR came in, didn't hire any of their people, brought in all their own people with lots of overtime, heck I worked 4 24 hour shifts in a row(12 on 12 sleeping) and we covered it fine.

But this service was so unliked in the community and their medics/emt's were so anti AMR that neither AMR nor the previous services employees wanted to have them work there.

So the big guys AMR And the like can pull from their current resources if they need to until they conduct some sort of hiring process.

That sounds like a really crappy deal for all involved. What strikes me about your story is that AMR covered the shifts with their own staff on overtime. I take it you were an AMR employee, since you state that the Mom and Pop medics weren't re-hired. How long were those shifts covered with staff on OT?

Overtime is expensive - and not just when it comes to the wages. Inury rates go up, health care claims go up. AMR must have been banking on only a short period of time passing before they were awarded the contract themselves. Who did they then hire to staff the trucks?

From a Monday-morning quarterback perspective, there are several things that could have been done there. The labour laws in the U.S. are pretty similar to those up here - forced overtime is illegal in all but the most extreme emergency situations. So all the AMR employees brought in to cover could have refused to work any OT to show solidarity with the Mom and Pop employees laid off. The local government would then have been forced to look for other options. Just about anything they come up with is going to be at least as expensive as just conceding to whatever demands caused Mom and Pop to go under in the first place.

And yes, I am a really pro-labour guy. I wasn't until I got into this job and saw first hand the BS that politicians and manager will try and pull, if they're allowed to get away with it. All I want is a level playing field for all participants. Management makes their case, labour makes their case, and a fair solution is found somewhere in the middle.

[MadAxe]

You're kidding, right? You can't be serious. Use your head. You're in CALIFORNIA! The birthplace of fire-based EMS! The only place that the local politicians are going to "jump" is to their fire chief. Then you won't have to worry about your "low paying job." In fact, you will have no job to worry about at all. And you will have only yourself to blame.

So - you said the only place the politicians would jump to is their fire chief, and suggested that the employees would then be laid off from their 'low paying job.'

Well, the politicians didn't do that. You were wrong. In the end they caved and came up with the money to grant the Piner's employees a good healthy raise.

Your words.

[Just Plain Ruff]

none of us were on forced overtime. what we did was work on our off days. They guaranteed that we would have 12 hours of downtime unless a call came out and this county averaged about 12 calls for a 24 hour shift. WE had a dedicated transfer car. We had 4 units on each shift. So our call times were not that often.

It made a really nice paycheck and it paid for a trip to Australia so I did it without hesitation.

Had they have forced me to work that many hours I would have said no. They didn't force anyone to work it.

[MadAxe]

All the more reason to strike, and put pressure on all the stakeholders to come up with a fair and reasonable solution. If AMR has a union, then their workers aught to show some solidarity with their colleagues and refuse to work in that area. Watch how fast the local politicians will jump if the prospect of no EMS coverage becomes a real possibility.

I predicted the politicians would jump if a strike became a real possibility, not if a strike actually occured. Well, it came down to the 11th hour, and they jumped all right. Into their budget and came out with the money to pay for a raise.

My words.

Been reading long?