ECC

My ODA was 3-14-88. I worked at 37 on 44B, 37G, 40B and 40A. I got transferred to 41 in '89 and when A/C Kowalczyk disbanded all the Queens TPUs I got shipped onto 43A until I went to Medic School in '90. After Medic School, I worked 35W1 until 1995 when I got promoted to Lieutenant. I was #10 on that list. I went to Communications, then back to 41 (now 47), then got transferred to the Bronx in the Great Redistribution of Supervisory Wealth in 1998. I worked 26 (22), and am a plankholder @ 17, where I was the Administrative Officer. I finally returned to Brooklyn in the beginning of 2001, and went to 31 (36) despite my desire to go to 57, and was the Executive Officer there.

I realized that I may have been doing Captain level work, and very well, but I did not have a 'Rabbi' looking out for me. I also was miserable. I worked EMS to feed my Firefighter/Paramedic habit in Long Island. So I found a job in a city who's inhabitants are not only happy, but grateful for the quality service we deliver. Most importantly, I am very happy now.

Wow Vent, you must have it rough. I have (along with many of my Fire Service Paramedic Comrades) very little contact with RNs (except the Triage nurse at the ED.

My Paramedic Program had no input from RNs. RN input in programs I am aware of is minimal at best. With the excemption of my ACLS refresher 6 years ago, and some CME regarding Helicopter Ops, I rarely even see RNs in educational roles. My monthly call review is given by my medical director, an MD. When I was in NY, my CMEs were given by other, capable, Paramedics...or MDs. So much for universal RN support or involvement in EMS

Being kept down by RNs...when I was in NY, we could thank the New York Association of Nurses for keeping licensure off the floor in the Legislature.

As for my skill set or what I do and know...dont assume...you are doing enough of that already. You are not getting another resume from me...that was several posts back. I can read and interpret ECGs just fine, ETCO2 and I was treating patients before O2 Sats became fashionable. :roll:

Lastly I will agree with you about our own role in keeping us down. You could not keep a bunch of EMTs and Paramedics together as a Union in NY until recently. We allow these Paramedic Mills to operate...and we fix their problem children into functioning paramedics and EMTs.

And thanks for targeting an off hand remark with a 10 paragraph diatribe without addressing anything else I said. :roll:

Exactly

May I interrupt this discussion for a moment?

Vent, I will agree that RNs have their "act" together, but they are a profession that has been around for what, 200+ years or so? The fact that they are sitting on EMS boards is (in my opinion) a good thing, but what is the adversity to moving US as a system in to the next phase, or as you put it:

"EMS needs to focus on creating its own identity and stop with "just like them" stuff."

Nursing is a field that comes from a long history of being held back by the MD if I'm not mistaken and has come a very long way to get where they are today, so why is it that if they have so much more education (which I will agree that they do) do they not push for EMS to get better educated and create our identity? Nurses have been there and know what it takes, but as I'm sure many medics here and out on the street will agree on, we are looked down upon much like nurses were by MDs of the past. Why is it that we can't do hospital triage? Is it because we are uneducated? Then teach us! I have never understood what the big mystery of knowledge is. If I can (as a paramedic) do something in the street to better a PTs outcome, then why is it the RNs and the MDs don't want to take the time to teach? Look at the history behind 12 leads in the field, what was the big hang up there? hell, even ER docs have to get them read by a cardiologist, but they still start care based off the 12 lead and Hx, don't they?

As far as the attacks on Vent in regards to RN vs EMT-P. Vent is dead on the money here and really we as a profession need to take a closer look at our education. What are we going to do about it? Are we going to just continue to sit here and spout off at Vent, or get some progressive changes made to our career choice? RNs are being seen more out in the street in many different areas besides just special needs transports, and if we intend on surviving as EMTs and medics then WE need to figure ourselves out as stated. If things keep going the way they are, WE could easily be replaced by RNs.......have NO doubt!

Interesting thoughts, and you are not really iterrupting. I am not taking swipes @ Vent...pointing out some misconceptions...and perhaps lack of communication.

I am not against education, rather I am against being kept down by RNs. I have quite a bit of education, and am not done yet either. What I am vehemently against are these Zero to Hero Programs churning out 20 year olds who spent no time in the street as an EMT, 6 month part time paramedic programs churning out $10/hr paramedics, and a plethora of hired gun 'EMS Institutes' churning out graduates as soon as the ink dries on the tuition checks...or giving unsuitable candidates more tries at bat than a pre-school t-ball player.

I believe that RNs deserve all the credit they are due...just not at my expense. I have not met many who would have dared work where I have (Bedford-Stuyvesant and East New York during the war years 1991-~1996)...they may be out there...I have not met them yet. On the flip side of the coin, I have zero interest in what they do...never have, never will.

I hope that clears some of that up.

Ventmedic,

I have been a US citizen of Irish decent all my life, thanks. Next to my name says I am from Mile High...Denver to be exact. I posted earlier that my education and experience trumps most RNs except perhaps BSRNs...you will have to look that up.

I know exactly how my current State EMS Office functions (or should I say dysfunctions) as well as New York's Office of EMS...how that is germain to this subject still baffles me. I am aware that some EMT-Ps have had to be 'supervised' by RNs on interfacility transports and Specialty Transports. Those are not germain to this discussion either. Just because RNs are chosen to take a specialty referral from a hospital to a specialty care center because the level of care is not within the scope of the paramedic assigned, does not increase their representation in the population of Pre-Hospital Care Providers. Nurses are not Primarily Pre-Hospital Care Providers. Just because a handful ride Specialty Referral Ambualnces or Medevacs is immaterial.

My point is, and remains, there are many pre-hospital care providers who are certified to the Paramedic level who are just as educated as AASRNs. Simply because I have an 'EMT-P' behind my name does not mean I deserve less respect as someone who has the same ammount of education as I do.

Furthermore, RNs have a different job than we (Paramedics) do. They may ride Medevacs (with Paramedics) or Specialty Referral Ambulances, but they do not make up the great majority of those responding to 911 assignments.

They were. Know your history. They also have been involved in the education and training of the Paramedic. Many Paramedic programs and EMS state offices still have RNs in management or educational positions.

Guess we are gonna slug it out for the want of understanding huh? You know what I meant. No need to be quite so literal. I have a phenomenal hold of our history, thanks for your concern. RNs were never the most populous Pre-Hospital Provider.

As for who manages the State EMS Offices...well I have no control over that, but suffice it to say, Id rather see an MD (with Pre-Hospital experience) or an EMT-P (degreed, of course...no 6 month wonders need apply) there. You don't see us trying to run RNs licensing boards right?

PS...Medics should not Triage in the ED if RNs are available...along the lines of why I do not want RNs out in the field. Our jobs are different. If they were not, RNs would have been staffing ambulances from the begining.

In the majority of states, an RN is not allowed to delegate a responsibility such as triage. No arguement

If someone has to bring up a Paramedic with 18 years of broad experience to compare with a 1 year RN, then I am not the only one that thinks highly of RNs. None here either

The other factors to consider, why would a Paramedic of 18 years want to work in an ED? Burnt out or injury? Does it matter?

What was the Paramedic's initial education? 10 Months Full time (40 Hours a week) NYC EMS Academy Class 90-02 Then 2 AASs on top of that

How much effort was put into continuing education during those 18 years besides just the minimum to renew?Just as much as my AASRN Wife does :shock:

Define broad experience. Does that mean the paramedic has seen a few calls of peds, a few of geriatrics, a few belly aches and a few MIs? A few good war stories? A lot of attitude for "BS calls"? 5 years on a truck that ran 30 runs/24 hours...11,500 runs a year. ~ 3K for me

I'd be all for an 18 year experienced, educated and enthuiastic Paramedic to do triage. But, what about all the new Paramedics who might want to do the same job because they decided they didn't like the street? The job description would probably just read "EMT-P cert, some experience preferred". No arguement here

The new RN may have done 6 months med-surg and 6 months ICU. Both of which involves more education, training and lots of patient contact for 12 hours per shift. The RN could see almost as many patients in that time as an 18 year Paramedic who sees 1 - 2 patients per shift, 2 shifts per week. See the numbers above...your example is not well rounded...by any yardstick applied

The Paramedic is expected to do assessments after just 700 hours or about 6 months of technical training. What is so absurd about an RN with a 2 year college degree that includes 2 semesters of A&P, Pathophysiology and Microbiology with all these courses reinforced through 2 years of the nursing processes courses as well as the 1200 plus clinical hours.6 months is not enough to teach a monkey to intubate...these courses are getting shorter and shorter...and not necessarily better either.

It is this arrogance that always manages to show itself at the regional EMS meetings when the topic of education is presented. So many think that their 6 months of education makes them the same as RNs and continuously try to compare themselfves to other professions. So, instead of establishing our own identity the Paramedics make the case for "don't need no more book learnin'". I am not the same, and I do not want their job. But I am as well educated, and resent that there are plenty out there like me, but we always revert to the lowest common denominator

I defend Paramedics on a lot of things both inside and out of the hospital. However, I will not defend or stand for the belief that 6 months of training is sufficient to state that the Paramedic is prepared to take on more responsibilities than for PreHospital at this time. Any half-way decent attorney could take just the few questions I presented at the top of this post and make a case.

EMS has not broaden its education and it has become too blind to see the rest of the healthcare professions expand their knowledge and scopes.

Now Ruffems:

I know you didn't mean that...at least not the Respiratory Therapist part.

BTW, it hasn't been all roses for 30 years between RNs and RRTs either. However, when the RRTs got out of their "tech" status by achieving an Associates minimum for entry, Bachelors for some of the reimbursement Bills and minimum for some job descriptions with more Masters degrees in the professions, RNs took notes. They saw we were more than someone who just intubated, set up vents and put in A-lines when one was needed. We now had an education to compliment the technical skills.

I am only pre-emptively answering what I am sure is going to be directed at me for my previous remark

At many hospitals I have seen LVN's triage. I am confident that most Paramedics would be more qualified to perform an accurate triage than an LVN. Between an RN and a paramedic in some ways I would still say the education of a paramedic is geared more towards an accurate triage than the much better educated RN. Now an experienced ER RN would probably beat the pants off a paramedic but odds are they would be in back doing patient care rather than triage. Is my ideas clear as mud?

Are you kidding me?

BSRN...mebbe...An Rn with an Associates? not likely.

Exactly!

What an interesting discussion going on here. Please allow me to 'weigh in'

Regarding SSM and Dynamic Deployment models: I worked for FDNY EMS and NYC EMS from 1988-2002. I was there when they tried Battalion Based Dispatching which is a fancy name for: pretend this is where a station would be...I will post a boss here, (An APRU with a Paramedic Lieutenant or Paramedic Captain and a Paramedic partner in a Bronco or Suburban) with 3-5 ALS/BLS Ambulances. The available truck with the lowest number (ie A111 would get stuck with a call before A112-all things being equal) We learned that this 'Battalion based model' did not work for NYC very well and returned to SSM. It may work elsewhere where you are not attempting to squeeze blood from the proverbial Rock.

As for idling your rig...for $13/hr I would tell them to pound sand. There is no way I am roasting on a street corner for that amount of $$$. There must be some sort of OSHA reg about that. In fact IIRC, Local 2507 (the EMT/Paramedics union of the FDNY) fought a regulation that mandated keeping rigs in service with no front A/C as long as the rear A/C worked. Look into it! Furthermore...I do not care what is carried on the rig...including Ativan...the providers are much more important than ANY patient.

Lastly...there is no way Fire is going to SSM.

Have a great day!

What do you expect the pay to be??

Any system that considers transferring from EMS to Fire a promotion, has some serious flaws.

Nobody considers it a 'promotion'. Department of Personnel must call it that in order to have a preferential hiring list from EMT/Paramedic to Firefighter. Civil Service Laws.

I have a quick question:

Dont mean to get off topic here:

I was just perusing the FDNY website, a friend has recently moved and is attempting to gain employment there.

I couldnt believe my eyes when I noticed the pay scale. Is this right

Starting FF $25,100 Yes, the UFA sold it's young for top pay

Starting EMT $27,295 And tops out at $40K or so (IIRC)

Starting MEDIC $37,346 Tops out at another rediculously low number...much lower than FF Top

If it is, we have serious problems. Can you even afford to live in NYC on these salaries. No.

Other note about the website:

Every civilian position has a starting salary of more then everyone I listed.

Go figure.

Gotcha...thanks.

DELETED

So...not that anyone owes us an explanation...but what was said that was so totally egregious as to get a ban and the post deleted??

That is what you scan PD freqs for...but I understand they took them our of your radios a while back...

Rich,

I am in Vegas right now..I'll e-mail you under separate cover.

M47 was the APRU assigned to Rockaway when I was there in ~98-99. Think 41U then M47 then C47. :wink:

Sorry to hear...I worked M47 when he was there. He is a good guy...that is not good news to hear.

Rich, weren't you in CB at one time or another?

I disagree, and there was no option for me to select.

I believe that there are indeed 'Para-gods'. These individuals (regardless of their level of hubris pre-medic) have had their heads grown in the fertile land that is EMS, and have been soaked by eager, easy to impress EMT's.

Oh, yes...I have seen the Para-god...they do exist.

The military cuts started during clintons first term as pres. My brother is a Marine, he was worried that he would not have the opportunity to re up during that time. He did re up but had to change MOS because of the cuts.

Um, wrong. George H. Bush started the first wave of demobilization called the 'Peace Dividend' It is partially responsible for the Crack Wars in NYC. The mustered out soldiers who came back to NYC had several options...one of which was to work for the warlords...that made for interesting times.

Otherwise I do not have any problems with what you posted.

>Stations instead of Battalions

Last I checked, we're actually back at 'stations' now. I'll let you know what it is next week.

>EVOC with Tony F. (and now with Tony V. and Rob R.)

That's Lt. Rob R. , or Lt.R.R. not to be confused with L.I.R.R.

Yup, you got him...I went to Lt. School with him. He was a great guy to work with.

More!

You worked with or on a 'Union' Truck

You remember when Conditions Bosses were Called 'Patrol'

Stations instead of Battalions

Modats!

Footpedal sirens on Chevy Gassers

Those 72 inch mostrosity lightbars from Code3

Sirens in the lightbar

A/C was just for patients.

Thomas Doyle!

TPU's

COR instead of CSL

The 9 block in any direction rule

Labor Relations (Bill L)... (Before Pete or BITS)

ISU especially ISH and ISJ

SOD

BLACKSHEEP!

The Blacksheep Pig Roast.

EVOC with Tony F. (and now with Tony V. and Rob R.)

MB 14 and STOP (prior to TOP) 88-04

I am sure I will think of a few more!

Here are a few...some are now Illegal...so I am not condoning or suggesting anyone follow my lead here!

1) 37V1 was awakened one night (after we passed them for the 4th time) to a 'Ambulance on fire'. We had soaked a trauma dressing in Alcohol...part of the decon kit...and lit it on fire on their hood. We then hit the siren. Boy did they JUMP! It caused no damage, but they never slept quite so oundly after that.

2) Do not like someone??? There were plenty of uses for nitropaste prior to its removal from our system.

3) Blocked in by a comrade working a later unit? Use a 5 Ton Jack and bring their car onto the street double parked...you need to be friends with the cops for this one).

4) I had a Battalion Chief who took another job back east...First we smeared Petroleum gause on his door handle, steering wheel and gear shift. Each time he touched something, he would leave the vehicle, clean his hands then get dogged by the next one. Ford Expeditions are notoriously easy to jimmy (easier than 73-91 Chevy Blazers)!

4a) Same Battalion Chief: 0300 we wake up and surround his bunkroom door. One Bottle Rocket and 2 Pressurized Water Cans (PW or Can). We shot the rocket into the office, but nothing happened. We waited for a few moments...and started to worry. We did not have the key to enter. We then ran down to the com room and toned out the BC. He woke up and we heard him stumble around. At that point the Lt came out of his Bunk and gave us the key. As we shoved the key into the lock, he was trying to open the door. We attacked with both PW cans...that was funny. Moral of the story: Bottle rockets scorch the carpet...Bottle rockets can (and will) set bedding on fire. :twisted:

5) Have I mentioned the many used for Deer and Elk Scent? Elk is worse

6) We had a guy who made his own pickled eggs. He tried to punk me...and failed. I went to his station with a new 6 pack of socks. I soaked the socks in the juice, then put a few eggs in. I beat the socks into mush, then I throwed the sock mush down (DEEP down) the vents. I think they are still there today.

7) Remove all food from the house...All of it...including refrigerated stuff. This helps if the house is in a remote area.

If I can be of further assistance...let me know.

The secret is to go NUKE early and often. Most do not have the stomach to keep up with me.

Is he still OTJ?

And you went Rat Hunting with Bobby Smath (Rip Brother) in a toga on the hill@ Station 37.

Them rats were bigger than an average house cat!