Non EMS stopping to help at Accident Scenes

[WendyT]

Between Calgary and Banff in 2005 -Jan 28, there were 3 cars and 1 truck in the ditch, the truck lost control and landed sideways on its side, up against another vehicle, even though no one was hurt, someone called RCMP/Ambulance and the fire department.

It was a complete waste of personnel, the fire chief wasnt happy but he did say that he's glad no one was killed.

[emt322632]

I hate pulling up on scene when there are 4 "Good Samaritans" who have already diagnosed the patient with a broken arm, concussion, severe asthma, and a broken pinky. It's happened on more than one occasion. People's hearts are in the right place, sometimes they just need to breathe.

Keep in mind though, I was speaking about people who have no medical knowledge and simply stop because they stayed at a Holiday Inn Express the night before.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I can tell you that if you stopped at my scene and said you were a paramedic you'd better be able to prove it. I encountered a would be rescuer who said he was a medic. Our unit was the only one on scene of a 3 car mva with 2 criticals and 4 minors. I had 2 additional units and a helicopter in route.

This guy comes up says I'm a medic can I help. I said sure take care of that critical patient till the ambulance gets here. He did and even though he did not cause any harm to the patient as he was able to keep the airway open and apply pressure on the brachial artery that was lacerated which was all he could do at the time since the guy was trapped in the car.

It turns out that the guy was a EMT from a neighboring jurisdiction. I found out that he was an EMT by the 2nd responding unit. Needless to say I reamed him a new one for misrepresenting himself and vowed from here on out that I would never allow someone to help me out with any type of advanced skills unless they fit the following criteria

1. I had to personally know them and what level they were

2. OR - they had to show me their EMT-P or Nursing license before they could do any type of advanced skill

Thank goodness it has never happened again but those are my ground rules

I never stop at a scene unless I can tell there is a real pressing need. If the ambulance is already there then I don't stop.

Now all this goes out the window if it's in my coverage area. All bets are off.

[MedicNorth]

Anyone with some emergency medical training, from First Aider to ER Doc, can be of some use, possibly life-saving, at a scene that has not yet been attended by EMS. Whether it is C-spine, controlling bleeding, or even preventing some well-meaning ignoramus from pushing the rolled vehicle back onto its wheels, some kind of BLS can be very helpful.

The point here is that essentially all you can offer IS BLS, unless you happen to be travelling with a helluva wanker bag with you. BLS can save lives.

As far as stopping at a scene that is already attended, I doubt that showing up in civvies and volunteering is going to do much. The crew should have a handle on their needs, and have resources on the way. Exceptions to this might be some sort of major MCI, but generally I have found that well-meaning bystanders and volunteers can be just in the way. Who has time to check someone's credentials when they are up to their elbows in patient care?

[Just Plain Ruff]

exactly my point. If they cannot provide their credentials in the instant that they say I'm a medic then they get to do BLS Stuff only.

I'll tell em that I don't have time to check their license and they get told BLS only.

The legal issue for me is that if they cannot show me that they are a medic then I won't use them in a medic capacity because it will not come back and bite them on the ASS but it will come back and bite me if they do something they are not trained for. So in reference to my above post, they had better have their credentials ready or I better know them or all they get to do is BLS skills.

[JonathanGennick]

As far as stopping at a scene that is already attended, I doubt that showing up in civvies and volunteering is going to do much. The crew should have a handle on their needs, and have resources on the way. Exceptions to this might be some sort of major MCI, ...

MedicNorth, believe it or not, your exception just happened to me this Monday night. Very bad car wreck that thankfully came right about at shift-change, so we could field two crews straight-away. Three patients though, and us two crews had our hands full with two who were critical. Turned out that the wreck was just a short walk from someone whom I'd gone to Basic class with. She hasn't been running calls much since class, but she came down and stayed with the non-critical patient, a 10-year-old girl. My partner and I had to make two runs to the hospital that night to get all the patients brought in. My classmate (who is licensed, btw) rode in the back with me to help care for the girl. It might have been a moral support sort of thing, but I really appreciated a second person in the back with me that night. She did help w/care too, and between the two of us we got things done faster than had I been alone, and we got that girl brought in. Then my classmate spent the next almost two hours standing next to the girl, comforting her, while she was treated on the cot in the hallway, because the ER was full--and in seeming chaos--with the two critical patients. Now I was there with the girl too, but my classmate is a very motherly lady, and I am sure she was far more comforting to that little girl than I could have been. She did great, and I was happy for the help.

Could we have gotten by without this EMT who came walking down the street? Sure. There were plenty of deputies on scene who were MFRs and EMTs themselves. But it was good to have this lady along, and I know she was a great comfort to that little girl.

Having said all the above, I live in a very rural area with a low population, and most of us EMTs all know each other. We've either gone through class together, or we've taken other trainings together, or we run together. We tend to become a fairly tight-knit group. So it's not like this lady that helped us out was a random stranger or anything. My partner and I had gone to class with her.

Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion, and I just wanted to throw out one example where having someone step in to help turned out to be a good thing.

P.S. Want to know one of the best parts about that call? My first patient that night was the girl's father. I didn't know it at the time, but found out the next day when I read the account in the paper. We did battle to keep his airway open all the way in to the hospital. It was touch-and-go. We got him there though, by golly. He survived. And so did his daughter. And that's a wonderful outcome.

[Just Plain Ruff]

JG that's a wonderful story. Sounds like you made a difference.

[JonathanGennick]

JG that's a wonderful story. Sounds like you made a difference.

Thanks, but I only deserve a sliver of the credit. I give a lot of credit to that ten-year-old girl, who had the presence of mind to crawl out of the wreck and walk barefoot through the snow (it was less that 12 degrees out that night) to a nearby house to get help. Otherwise, who knows how long it would've been before another car came by. That road is not really busy even in daytime, much less at night. Then, one of our most experienced EMTs, a specialist of 20+ years experience, and also an instructor, was called out. He got on scene before the rigs did. Let me tell you, I was *real* happy when he got in the back of the rig with me with that one patient having airway troubles. If I made any difference, it's because he was there taking the lead on patient-care. My partner helped with the extrication and then drove us safely in to the hospital. (Roads were slick and hadn't been plowed yet). Then my partner helped in the E/R -- she's in paramedic training, and she's been doing her clinical time at that hospital. Oh, and give credit too, to the two e/r doctors and the nurses and everyone else at the hospital. They had to kick it into high gear pretty darn fast. Things are usually pretty slow at our hospital. And lots of other people were out there on scene helping with extrication and scene control. I eventually lose track of who all did what, but there were no snafus, and everything came off like clockwork. That might be the best part. We all worked together to make all the right things happen.

[Coach Hohman]

We were on a scene one night, second unit on scene handling sign offs. The first until transported non-code 3 to the nearest factility and I was working on 2 sign-offs and out of no where this Buick comes zipping in off the highway and out runs a woman, probably mid-20's in scrubs with a stethescope around her neck (sign No. 1) she ran probably 100 yards up to the scene, looks into the car, which in her defense was pretty torn up....then runs up to me, clip board in hand, 2 patients sitting on the running board and yells, "I'M AN STNA, CAN I HELP?" Here in Ohio an STNA is a nurses assistant, I know there's a million different titles for them but basically they wipe asses and change bed pans for a living. Well, without skipping a bear I was like, "Well, if someone here needs their butt wiped I'll be sure to holler for you." The patients thought it was hillarious, the "samaritan" did not. She tried to turn me in to our department chief who laughed at her and told me to watch my mouth :roll: :shock:

[Just Plain Ruff]

Coach, that was hilarious.

what I have found is that the nurses aids who stop do this.

Them "Hi, I'm a nurse can I help"

Me "sure. what kind of nurse are you"

Them "I'm a nurses aide"

Me "Oh, ok sure you can help, stand over there"

Them "but then I won't be able the help"

Me "EXACTLY"

I had that exact discussion with a nurses aid who followed us the hospital just in case the stable fractured ankle patient coded and we needed her help.

She then asked me why I didn't let her help and I told her something to this effect "you misrepresented yourself therefore you don't get to help"

Her "NO I didn't"

Me "yes you did when you said you were a nurse and you aren't"

Her "I said I was a nurses aid"

Me "No you didn't. would you like me to get the nursing supervisor down here and discuss it with her"

She worked on the 3rd floor skilled nursing unit in the hospital we took the patient to and we are based out of that hospital

Her "Yes, get her down here"

Me "Ok, I'll go get her"

to make a long story short (some of you are saying TOOOOOO LATE!) She was reprimanded and ever since this incident I felt daggers in my back if I was ever on the same floor bringning up a patient when she was working.

She has since gone on to bigger and better things - she works at the local chicken processing (tyson) plant. A step up for her if you ask me.