Non EMS stopping to help at Accident Scenes

[beckoncall62]

I can tell you that if you stopped at my scene and said you were a paramedic you'd better be able to prove it. I encountered a would be rescuer who said he was a medic. Our unit was the only one on scene of a 3 car mva with 2 criticals and 4 minors. I had 2 additional units and a helicopter in route.

This guy comes up says I'm a medic can I help. I said sure take care of that critical patient till the ambulance gets here. He did and even though he did not cause any harm to the patient as he was able to keep the airway open and apply pressure on the brachial artery that was lacerated which was all he could do at the time since the guy was trapped in the car.

It turns out that the guy was a EMT from a neighboring jurisdiction. I found out that he was an EMT by the 2nd responding unit. Needless to say I reamed him a new one for misrepresenting himself and vowed from here on out that I would never allow someone to help me out with any type of advanced skills unless they fit the following criteria

1. I had to personally know them and what level they were

2. OR - they had to show me their EMT-P or Nursing license before they could do any type of advanced skill

Thank goodness it has never happened again but those are my ground rules

I never stop at a scene unless I can tell there is a real pressing need. If the ambulance is already there then I don't stop.

Now all this goes out the window if it's in my coverage area. All bets are off.

Ruffems-A comment in your post brought to mind something I wanted to comment on specifically-that comment being "Guy comes up and says I'm a medic, I can help". I participate regularly in the chatroom. One of my first times in there, someone asked me if I was a medic. Being fairly new in EMS, I said yes. Since then I've learned a few more things. An EMT-B isn't the same thing as being a medic. It can often be an honest misunderstanding of terminology when this happens, as opposed to someone deliberately trying to misrepresent themselves. In my case, I was having a "rookie" moment. The thing is, it's important for new EMT's to understand the difference between the two. Yes there are some "Randy Rescues" and "ego-maniacs" out there, I agree. But this isn't always the case.

Anyway, more to the topic, I stop at accident scenes under the following circumstances:

1. If I witness it occur.

2. If I come up on an accident after it has just occurred and there are no emergency personnel there yet.

3. If law enforcement are on scene, it's obvious there are injuries involved and no EMS are on scene yet.

4. If it appears to be an MCI

In incidents where there are emergency personnel on scene, I will identify myself as an EMT-B and offer to help.

If they don't want my help-I leave.

If someone approaches me and says

I'm a medic, or EMT, doc, nurse, whatever, I ask them to be more specific so I don't end up with a veternarian trying to give human patient care, etc. I've been faced with each of these scenarios I've presented. So far , it's worked out.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Beck I agree with your thoughts. I usually will ask them point blank EMT or medic and if they say medic then they better be able to prove it either right there or after the call. If they say EMT then we're all good.

Thankfully I've only had to ask that question about 5 times in 15 years. I've worked in mainly a rural environment my career and find that you get to know all the providers in your coverage area and I've never had to really ask that often.

But I agree, clarification and proof after the fact is very much warranted.

i will be the first to offer help if needed and the first to tell the person offering help that "We're good" or "Heck yes, get in here"

[nwoparamedics]

Q. When a car accident occurs, and someone who has some medical knowledge and training (Like an EMR, MFR) stops to help, to assist with what is needed, provided the actions are in his/her training/authorized ability to do so. EX. Keep a clear airway, hold manual C-Spine, CPR, protect from elements with blanket, update EMS, etc.

If you were responding to this emergency. How do you feel, has this person done the right thing by stopping to help, or should s/he, who has the ability to help, just drive by, and only call 911?

Maybe it is because of the region in which I work, maybe it is because of the long distances travelled from the scene to the hospitals, maybe it is because we only have one rig every 100-200 km.... but I'm with MedicNorth on the fact that anyone trained in even the basics of First Aid can be of assistance.

Most of the calls that we have people stop to help are on our main Trans-Canada highway... and the majority of the accidents involve the highway being shut down. There are two of us.... in some areas we have First Response (EFR's) that show up just before or soon after and in all areas... the Fire Services show up sooner or later (along with one or two OPP).

Back on track though... due again to the locations... often our dispatch center has only a rough idea of where the accident occurred in the first place as there is not much to identify the areas besides rock cuts and lakes... so... go ahead and call 911 with better location information.

If there are only two people, or all are in the one vehicle... most bystanders usually don't come up and ask if we need help as they can see we have things under control ... but the majority of times... with multiple vehicles and multiple patients... damn rights my partner and I could use the help... and even sitting with a patient is better for them than being scared and alone.

One of the best things to happen at one of these scenes is when you look up to see one of your off-duty coworkers (from our community, or from somewhere in our region) at the ready, or one of our local air medics whom is stuck in traffic due to the accident. It's great to have that extra set of hands that you know and trust...

Next up would be the local Docs and RN's (whom are used to being in a fairly controlled environment unlike the ditches/swamps or in torn up vehicles along the highway)... and then our bystanders with some First Aid experience... whom all could be put to good use doing something even if it again is just being beside a patient and monitoring them until we can get to them.

I truly enjoy the environment in which I work, the demands placed on oneself due to the region and lack of manpower, and with regards to this topic... truly appreciate our First Responders whom stop and help out. The ones whom are calm and in control... we put to use beside us, the ones whom are hesitant or a bit flighty ... we get them to do other things away from the patients (i.e. bring supplies, set up landing zones, etc...).

[WannaBeEMT]

Thank you everyone, I appreciate all the comments. It is nice to know that the majority of EMS think positively of the folks who stop to help, before the emergency services arrive. And those who don't, I'm sure have their reasons.

I know, that when I had my car accident, I wasn't jumping for joy, and really appreciated when the OPP got there within a few minutes of the call. And at the minor accidents that I came across, and the person was alone or a whole group in the car, even if not injured, they were still scared, and you could see the relief on their face, when they see someone is there to help. So even if it is only moral support. It's got to be worth it.

One time I was coming home from Toronto on the HWY 401. It was already dark, but it was summer so the roads were clear and dry. All of a sudden I saw headlight shining at me in the front. Going at a good clip of 120km/h, on a one way hwy, its a bit of a suprise to see someone coming towards you, to say the least. I hit the brakes. It all seemed to be in slow motion, but probably happened in less than a second. The headlights whipped around and disappeared. So we stopped to see where that car was and if anyone needed help.

What most likely happened was the driver was speeding and lost control of the car, or tried something stuping and the car did a 360, hit the post and wire guard rail, took out two posts and flipped on the wires and ended up in the ravine below. There were 4 or 5 people there, all young, and by some miracle they weren't hurt. Although they looked as if they've just seen a few ghosts, and probably couldn't really believe that they were alive. By seeing us approaching, they seemed to realize they were still on earth , and one of them started talking, while the rest couldn't find their voice for a few minutes. I asked if they wanted me to call 911 and they did, so that was that.

Just another story :wink:

WannaBeEMT

[Lithium]

I feel I have to disagree with most of the people on here, as has been discussed before.

I was actually talking about this with my partner the other day after all we did all day essentially was MVAs (did anyone else get covered in snow holy cow)

Anyways, the thing I don't like about non-ems personnel on car accidents is safety. It's really dangerous for people to be walking around roadways with no high-visibility clothing on, no protection for yourself (crushed/bent metal is sharp!) and a host of other hazards. In all honesty, it isn't worth the risks. Here in southern Ontario, help is rarely more then 4 minutes away thanks to the tiered syetm that sends the fire department. With that being said, I'm going to trust the report of the fire crew moreso then I would somebody in plain clothes ...

Also, not to mention, most of the people I've encountered at these type of scenes are wankers, who have applied to paramedic school 4 times but never got in ... or atleast that was what was portrayed through their attitutde and communication style.

So yes, in short, don't get involved. If it looks bad enough, simply call 9-1-1. Contrary to what vs-eh says (remember, he works for the centre of the universe ) I don't mind showing up on scene to having everyone cancel us off.

Jacob

[FormerEMSLT297]

I will say this, unless I'm overwhelmed by patients , I don't need untrained or semi trained bystanders stopping to help. Now if I'm first on scene I'll stop. But almost NEVER if I see an ambulance stopped on the side of the road.

My car doesn't have light and emerg. equipment. I don't want to have to leave it on the side of the road and jump in with the crew/patient. I don't want to get all bloody and then contaminate my car, civvies clothes, etc.

But having said that I did witness a Motorcycle go down several years ago on the New york Thruway. I pulled past the accident and well off the shoulder in my personal car with my 6 y/o son sleeping in the back seat, and left my brother to watch him.

I called 9-1-1 and approached to patients (2 on the same M/C). Even though watched the accident happen, by the time I got to the patients I had 2 EMT's and 2 nurses tending to the patient.

I told the 9-1-1 Op, that I was an off duty medic and that I didn't know where the nearest trauma center was, but that if there wasn't one near by I could start a helo. I gave the patients conditions to the Op, one had massive head trauma, was unc, decorticate and posturing, the other had an open TI-fib on 1 leg and closed femur on the other.

When the first trooper arrived, I told him what i did. We waited like (well lets just say it seemed like forever) for the first ambulance and FD to arrive. When they arrived I told the Fire Chief that I had called, he confirmed the helo was en route, and told me I made a good call.

Now for the best part. Because I had pulled well ahead of the accident, I was able to leave the scene before the helo even landed, and the other good sams at the scene were STUCK in the back up. The road was closed for several hours, and I had open sailing ahead with almost no traffic on the road.

[sledogg1]

Stopped at a mvc motorcycle saw the pt with two ladies, asked if they needed help, I am a Paramedic ACP they said "no they are RN's " Noticed the pt was on his stomach ,heard snorring respirations!!!!!!!!!!! I Went down and told them they must gain airway control HE'S BREATHING THEY SAID :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: I said thankyou for your help, I now need Your assistance. With all the c spine logged rolled and his helmet was chacked in half beside him ................rn's nicely removed it before I arrived, he had massive head trauma. Had my wife get my medical kit out the back as we where heading back from Sudbury Ont and suctioned him Airway was contolled, did abc's proceeded to remove clothing noticed a Hells Angles tat and patch GREAT he had 2 femur fx, 2 radial/ulner fx and when I opened the shirt 1 Rn passed out there was 2 lungs and a heart doing a bradycardic beat........his ribs were sticking lt/rt. Covered the cx the ambulace arrived I had 2 14g IV's in and they where BLS. THE LOOK OF HORROR ON THERE FACES I had my ACP TAG with me and went with them,intubated and he coded in hospital.

Yes it is nerdy to have a kit with you if you use it be prepared to go, have your tag with you, but the hospital was impressed with our scope of practice.....got a thankyou from the Hells Angles :shock: and the RN woke up after her friend pulled her out of the bullrushes.

[AnthonyM83]

If an ambulance is on-scene, I'd say rarely stop UNLESS it seems like an MCI and we don't have enough resources on-scene. We had a motorcycle down a couple weeks ago. I ended up holding c-spine while my partner had to worry a million other things, while I was stuck in that position. It would have been great to have a bystander offer to help and hold c-spine (or hold head while I remove helment, though in this case it already was). After the first few minutes, though, we had more than enough EMS at hand and i t would have crowded things to have someone stop.

If there's NO ambulance on-scene, then yes, I think it's the responsibility of every citizen to do their best to safely check if people need help and stop to assist if they can safely pull over. I would hate to be seriously injured in an accident and have dozens of cars on the freeway just zoom by.

[GBFDEMS174]

I would simpley pass by because you do not know what the situation really is, what the patient has if any diseases Ex. AIDS or HIV and besides if you do stop you do not know how truthful they are going to be with you. I can remember one time a non EMT he is a firefighter on my company stopped at a scene and asked for the medical history the patient told him somethings but failed to mention that she was HIV positive. so when stopping on a scene like that you do not know what you are really getting yourself into

[GBFDEMS174]

I would simpley pass by because you do not know what the situation really is, what the patient has if any diseases Ex. AIDS or HIV and besides if you do stop you do not know how truthful they are going to be with you. I can remember one time a non EMT he is a firefighter on my company stopped at a scene and asked for the medical history the patient told him somethings but failed to mention that she was HIV positive. so when stopping on a scene like that you do not know what you are really getting yourself into