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I am not judging anyone decision in this case. Another example of how we are put in lose lose situations, If this particular woman dies we will somehow be put at fault. If we take her against her will, we could have a problem. You have to go with the lesser of two evils. I will take the latter.

Let me clarify taking her against her will. I wouldn't wrestle this woman to the ground stuff her in the ambulance and fight with her all the way to the hospital. I just wouldn't give her a choice. Listen the police are questioning the odor you are emitting, I thinks its better if you ride with us, rather then them. You owe it to your family to be evaluated, don't let them find you dead in bed. I know its a pain in the arse, but in the grand scheme of things its only a couple of hours. Everyone can be convinced, you just have to point out how excruciatingly painful a death they could experience.......LOL

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Ace you must really enjoy kidnapping, what do you think I didn't try to convincer her? We said everything we could to her, cops didn't want to deal with her, not me. I tried, my driver tried, ff's tried, other EMT's tried, nothing we said worked.

"Peppermintpatty,"

Please take this opportunity to educate yourself with both the legal standards you are held to and the realities of the environment in which you practice, as well as the standards of care for EMS in the situation. After that I would encourage you to search and read the volumes of posts here which cover topics similar to this. If you still think you're correct at that time and need a more 'PRONOUNCED' method of education then at that time come back here and challenge me again. At this point you are in a nearly unteneable position.. Also at that time, please post all applicable laws, regulations, protocols, and standards of practice as well as professional literature which back up your claims. Until then, consider this as a friendly warning not to get yourself into a loosing battle.

Out Here,

ACE844

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kpeppermintpatty wrote:

What do you all think? I was so frustrated because I couldn't do anything, forcing her into a collar or even an exam would have gotten me in trouble, but I felt so helpless and pissed because this lady needed to be looked and wouldn't go. any comments?

You asked what we thought. I am not judging the decision you made, I am just pointing out ways to help you in the future.

As you get older and with more experience. You will develop ways to effectively convince people to do things you want them to do, assessment, evaluation, and transportation. Its called the art of persuasion, and it is an important practice in EMS.

Just a quick question, no offense but at 17 you were senior person on scene?

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For me, the question isn't about whether or not transportation was appropriate. The question is whether aeromedical evacuation was appropriate.

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For me, the question isn't about whether or not transportation was appropriate. The question is whether aeromedical evacuation was appropriate.

"Dust,"

I agree that this is also an ADDITIONAL concern about the poor judgement and clinical decision making which happened on this scene. In addition, I also submit that based on the circumstances and what was posted here that the patient may have benefited HUGELY from the additional clinical judgemant and vast experience which were both needed with this patient and at this call. If for no other reason than no one else there seemeed TO HAVE ANY, and it sounds like the pateint received VERY LITTLE or ven NO appropriate care or assessment!! Do I think this patient warranted a Helo at the time of presentation..NO, But since it was already enroute, and probably almost at the call, I ask you to consider the aforementioned points.

Stay Safe, and Good Hunting,

ACE844

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For me, the question isn't about whether or not transportation was appropriate. The question is whether aeromedical evacuation was appropriate.

IMHO: No.

Aeromedical Evacuation should only be used for a pt that's critical. Otherwise, it's a waste of the flight crew's time.

Since this woman was moving around, and apparent A/Ox3, I'd say ground xport would suffice.

Either way though, she should have been Xported for evaluation at an ED.

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In are area, this pt would not have been a candidate for helo transport. I think she probably got her bell rung, she does however need evaluation. Could be leaking in her head, but with no witnessed LOC, do we know her vitals, if they point to SAH w/increasing ICP maybe, what did her neuro exam conclude, deficit? Are hospital is so close, we would transport her there, they can scan her, get an MRI, if they find anything they can fly her from there.

Can a 17 y/o even have a pt sign a refusal. They cant sign a legal document themselves. They wouldn't be allowed to sign a refusal themselves if they were my pt. I don't understand and this is nothing personal. If you cant make decisions for yourself how would you make medical ones for someone else?

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