Christianity in EMS...

[nsmedic393]

Funny how this thread started out as a very productive discussion.

I hear thumping.

[Michael]

I must admit, this last exchange got me thinking. (I'll try not to let it happen again.)

[PCTtiff]

Dear Michael,

I'll address this just to you this time.

First off, I want to apologize. I realize what you are seeing in me now and I truly am sorry for the impression I’ve given you of me. My real 'agenda' has been to share my beliefs as I have asked each of you to do on here. I'm sorry that it's become something you have to question.

I never meant it to seem like I was trying to 'convert' you. I was trying to show what I see and where I find my reasons to go on in this life. This is a hard place, and harder it gets every day. I feel strongly about how hard it is even WITH Jesus, and I know how hopeless it is w/o Him. I guess I express myself a little too strongly and it seems as if I'm pushing myself/my beliefs on people. That's a terrible thing, I realize, because it serves to push more away than bring closer.

I can tell you have wounds from 'evangelical Christians’. I'm sorry I reopened them. Like I said, I never intended to ‘convert’ you. My reasons for being on this site were NOT to ‘convert’ a whole bunch of people. When I found this site, I immediately liked it as a place to go to talk and learn. I like the people and I love the knowledge here. I’ve learned SO much from the first few posts I read / posted and from the replies I got from you guys (esp. Dust in Med Terms). I don’t intend on just up and forgetting about the site or you guys. Believe it or not, I WANT to get to know people on here (or some of you - I KNOW I can’t get to know you ALL). I'm not a leaver. I don't up and run when I'm confronted.

I didn’t mean to insult you by saying you’re a 5!! If I'd have said 1 or 10 you could have taken it either as I really like you or I really dislike you. 5 is right in the middle! I was only joking with you, hence the :wink: after.

Also, please know, I'm NOT trying to tell ANY of you what is wrong with you. Many who take offense might themselves see that something is wrong or missing, but I NEVER said it or even thought it. I'm sorry for that implication also. I only want people to know that, to fill that void, all they need is Jesus. I don't have an underlying agenda, my only agenda is to share that with you. (I know you don't like me using 'share', but I'm lacking a better word and also a thesaurus).

When I asked 'what would convince you', I didn't mean I had to. I didn't mean I wanted to! I meant and I STILL mean that I would like to know what YOU believe. Also, I apologize that I "rushed at you". I want to know your side better, I don't want to shove mine down your throat.

I fully understand, now, where you are getting your impressions of me. My tone can be impersonal sometimes and I'm working on it. I DO NOT want, or plan, to 'preach' to you and up and leave. I want and enjoy friendship as much as the next guy and I wish for the ‘friend that sticks closer than a brother'. I want to be one of those friends. I know what I believe though and I won't hide it or change it for a 'friendship'. That's not what I believe friends are. YES, they accept each other for who they are, but they also (lovingly) try to guide them when they know the other is wrong. (I’m NOT saying you’re wrong) I want people to do that for me also, because I’m SO far from perfect! (As you can tell)

You have gone on and on about me 'handing people off to Jesus' and leaving. I'm not going anywhere! I'm not planning on leaving! Did you think I would be so upset after our disagreements that I'd rather just forget all this? I appreciate your replies, I really do! I want to know the impressions people are getting of me and if I can improve them, I want to! You can't change what you don't acknowledge and I acknowledge that I'm not perfect and I haven't stated things the best. I'm working on it though.

The quote about siblings... you noted Cain and Abel. True, yes, but don’t you think, for this situation, it’s a little extreme to compare it to my comment? Not every fall out siblings have makes them want to kill each other - at least I don't think so!

So, you want a personal story? I’ve got one for you on that topic. I have a sister, an ‘older’ sister, who I can relate that quote to exactly. I love her, but I do not like her AT ALL right now. She has done so many things to hurt my family, namely my mom, and her character is very ugly. Her language is unspeakable (no pun intended), her attitude is only ever defiance when something doesn't go her way, and she's rebelled against every ethical/moral standard a 'good' person would set. I know I LOVE her, but as I said, I certainly don't like her right now.

BIG misunderstanding in the last part. I was speaking of the Christian forum I told you about, not of this one! I didn’t mean that my faith and my integrity were attacked on here! These posts have been MILD compared to what I encountered on the “Christian” forum. I went there for support when I was going through one of the toughest times for my family and all I got was condemnation and judgment. Yes, I do want guidance. There are MANY people who are wise beyond their years on here and I am constantly learning just reading the posts. Honestly, this site is still great to me - NOT perfect, but still great.

Again, I hope we can get past this ‘squabble’ and still learn from each other. I know you have knowledge beyond your years in your profession and have much to give or ‘share’. I respect your feelings and your beliefs. I don’t judge or condemn people for their beliefs, but I know mine and I’m not afraid to state them (as you can painfully see).

Lastly I want to say, thank you for your depth and thank you for telling me what you mean. I learned a lot about you through these discussions and I’m sure that you’ve touched many people in EMS. I’m sure you’ve touched many people just in your life.

><> God Bless you <><

In Jesus,

Tiffany

P.S. Michael, you stated in one of your first posts that you were ‘here not much longer’ than I. Do you mean on this site or in years? If you don’t mind my asking, how old are you? Hope to talk to you later.[/font:af36160aa8]

[PCTtiff]

Akflightmedic, thanks for watching over us and ‘keeping it clean’. You make a cool administrator and I hope to learn a lot from you while I’m here also.

Big ‘thank you’ to everyone on here. You’ve really shown your deepness and I learned a lot just from these posts. (I know, I keep saying that, but it's true!) You ALL are really cool people and I can only wish the best for each you. God Bless always.

<>< Tiffany ><>

[winyan]

I've a deep faith, but no way could I possibly tolerate 'christianity'.

Too many of my family have been killed in the name of your "Jesus"

I'm American Indian, and we've lost too many of our family members to overzealous types.

As I said I've a deep and abiding faith in "One ABove" who is in everyone and everything, including the two legged, the four legged and the no legged.

This includes the trees, the rocks and the stars.

win

[InsomniacEMT]

Hey Guys

I have been, (to the Christians on the board)

Seriously praying God would reveal some Christian members. This is a tough job, and the importance of Christian Fellowship is a great aspect.

Anyone want to contact me. Let's chat, and do as God tells us "encourage one another"

AIM: MelodyS14

Yahoo: christfirst4me

MSN: shadowgirl13@hotmail.com

God Bless...

Mel

[kevkei]

I am a Christian and I'm proud to be one. I don't boast and I don't "preach" but I will discuss and exchange dialogue with those that are interested. I don't "bible thump" but I'm firm in my faith.

I think that if you don't want to believe, that's fine. If you went to church, but a certain congregation turned you off, then it was probably a bad church. Believe me, those that say they are Christians can be a wolf in sheeps clothing. Most of what society dislikes about Christians are due to perceptions based on limited knowledge or from personal experiences. You know, I had a bad experience and interaction with a couple of surgeions - does that make all surgeons bad? :wink:

If you have never read them, a few good books to read to see the basis of Christianity, check out the books by Lee Strobel, The Case for a Creator,The Case for Faith, The Case for Christ, The Case for Christmas and The Case for Easter.

He is an author that had spent time trying to prove Christ wasn't real and that Christianity is a farce. He was an Athiest that used his position as an investigative journalist and court reporter to prove his position. The problem was that the more research he did and the more thime he spent, the opposite happened. He became a believer and a Christian.

The funny thing is, the Bible has not been proven to be historically accurate, actually the opposite is true.

[Medic117]

You have the right to not believe. However, you must be willing to accept the consequences at the Judgement. One day ALL will believe. I do not tell my patients what they have to do. I ask permission to talk to them, but I will tell them the truth. They know I am there to serve, and I tell my patients that i will be praying for them...and I follow through. It's who I am

[Guest]

THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH

I swear by Apollo the physician, by Æsculapius, Hygeia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgement, the following Oath.

"To consider dear to me as my parents him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and if necessary to share my goods with him; to look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art if they so desire without fee or written promise; to impart to my sons and the sons of the master who taught me and the disciples who have enrolled themselves and have agreed to the rules of the profession, but to these alone the precepts and the instruction. I will prescribe regimen for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgement and never do harm to anyone. To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death. But I will preserve the purity of my life and my art. I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art. In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves. All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal. If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot."

N.B.

Is it not an interesting comment that Hippocrates would "take witness from "ALL THE GODS" ?

[Michael]

Dear Michael,

Hey Tiffany –

I'll address this just to you this time.

Italics are mine again (Leviticus 19:19)

First off, I want to apologize.

No apology necessary, no condemnation expressed or implied, though I thank you for the sentiment, which is to enhance the other’s [my] welfare.

I realize what you are seeing in me now and I truly am sorry for the impression I’ve given you of me.

Don’t be. It’s basically very favorable. Would that more individuals carried your express goodwill, your confidence in humanity, your energetic self-searching.

My real 'agenda' has been to share my beliefs as I have asked each of you to do on here. I'm sorry that it's become something you have to question.

I don’t question your beliefs, which I take would mean questioning whether you sincerely believe what you profess to believe. I have tried to do a few things here: a) predict the hostility you would encounter when addressing people in a particular way; predict the futility of addressing many, if not most people that way; c) explain the basis for their hostility and your futility, and, while not justifying the hostility, empathize with it; d) describe what I found in your delivery provocative of hostility, alienation, and futility as best I could. Your agenda didn’t “become” something I had to question; I took your proclamations [your term] from the outset an invitation to which I responded.

I never meant it to seem like I was trying to 'convert' you.

How not?

I was trying to show what I see and where I find my reasons to go on in this life.

Indifferent to whether others agree with you?

This is a hard place

Granted.

, and harder it gets every day.

I hope not indefinitely. That is the rare case. If it persists, I hope you find loving, informed, and persistent support from capable people.

I feel strongly about how hard it is even WITH Jesus, and I know how hopeless it is w/o Him.

I propose that He may work more subtly than we are trained to recognize, and requires a measure of inner quieting in order to be heard; a quieting, heretical as it may sound, even of some articles of belief.

I guess I express myself a little too strongly

Haven’t noticed that.

and it seems as if I'm pushing myself/my beliefs on people.

That I’ve noticed.

That's a terrible thing, I realize,

As one of our skeptic brethren here is fond of saying, Meh…

because it serves to push more away than bring closer.

I can tell you have wounds from 'evangelical Christians’.

Not wounds, nor even irritation. I feel a little sad when I think I see people respond to pain by reaching for dogma (that’s Greek for “proclamation”) because they haven’t learned to trust their experiences without prejudice.

I'm sorry I reopened them.

Nothing reopened, Tiffany, because nothing had been closed. Say, have you ever noticed other people repeatedly trying to correct your diagnoses of their emotional conditions? Or having given up trying to do so?

Like I said, I never intended to ‘convert’ you.

I’m still bewildered by that claim. Whatever else is the purpose of “witnessing” (your term)?

My reasons for being on this site were NOT to ‘convert’ a whole bunch of people.

Sure looked like that was one reason.

When I found this site, I immediately liked it as a place to go to talk and learn. I like the people and I love the knowledge here. I’ve learned SO much from the first few posts I read / posted and from the replies I got from you guys (esp. Dust in Med Terms).

I notice you qualified that, tee-hee…

I don’t intend on just up and forgetting about the site or you guys. Believe it or not, I WANT to get to know people on here (or some of you - I KNOW I can’t get to know you ALL). I'm not a leaver. I don't up and run when I'm confronted.

Good for you. May you be confronted only by worthy encounters, then.

I didn’t mean to insult you by saying you’re a 5!!

I’ve been called worse.

If I'd have said 1 or 10 you could have taken it either as I really like you or I really dislike you.

That’s why in assessing the quality of a patient’s spiritual pain we are trained to ask, “On a scale of zero to ten, zero being winning every argument you’ve ever had and ten realizing that your fundamental beliefs have never had the support of sufficient evidence…”

5 is right in the middle! I was only joking with you, hence the after.

My kind friend, I was joking too. Five = already too generous; a higher rank would have led me to suspect you of holding low standards.

Also, please know, I'm NOT trying to tell ANY of you what is wrong with you.

I had the impression that you find it important to let every heathen you meet learn that they are damned sinners. Was that a false impression? Do you not wish them to learn that from you if they haven’t learned it elsewhere? Would you be content to have them leave your acquaintance persisting in their ignorance of that?

Many who take offense might themselves see that something is wrong or missing, but I NEVER said it or even thought it. I'm sorry for that implication also. I only want people to know that, to fill that void,

What if they don’t perceive such a void? (Dustdevil, call your office)

all they need is Jesus. I don't have an underlying agenda, my only agenda is to share that with you. (I know you don't like me using 'share', but I'm lacking a better word and also a thesaurus).

Howzabout “inform you of that”?

When I asked 'what would convince you', I didn't mean I had to. I didn't mean I wanted to! I meant and I STILL mean that I would like to know what YOU believe.

I try to show rather than tell. I hope that works for you.

Also, I apologize that I "rushed at you".

No blame. I love attention.

I want to know your side better,

Jeez Louise, do I have to have a “side”? How ‘bout a side of bacon?

I don't want to shove mine down your throat.

Having someone else’s side shoved down one’s throat – now there’s a novel 911 call

I fully understand, now, where you are getting your impressions of me.

Internet Explorer

My tone can be impersonal sometimes and I'm working on it. I DO NOT want, or plan, to 'preach' to you and up and leave. I want and enjoy friendship as much as the next guy and I wish for the ‘friend that sticks closer than a brother'.

Where’s Cain when you need him

I want to be one of those friends.

You seem more capable of that and likely to achieve it than many, many people, and I only commend you for that.

I know what I believe though and I won't hide it or change it for a 'friendship'.

Nor should you, unless your belief proves false, or - and here’s my sermon - if believing is simply an inappropriate category with which to meet every experience you have. I have repeatedly had to correct your statements about me in instances where you were uncompelled by outer circumstances to form any assumptions at all. I am proposing that the world will speak to you (and not only you) more clearly if you let it speak its own language and restrain your impulse to trim, say, someone else’s outlook into a format familiar to your convenient handling. It makes people feel bypassed. When it’s attended by the fierce interest you display, they may feel used. A figure whose achievements I judge mixed said at least one clever thing: “If you fail to give a hungry man bread, he will not like you, but if you write him a check and it bounces, he will hate you.” I would add that this is true whether or not you knew there were insufficient funds to cover the check.

That's not what I believe friends are. YES, they accept each other for who they are, but they also (lovingly) try to guide them when they know the other is wrong.

* Ahem: * when invited to do so or always?

(I’m NOT saying you’re wrong)

About what, dammit?

I want people to do that for me also, because I’m SO far from perfect! (As you can tell)

Your secret's safe with me.

You have gone on and on

Sorry it was on and on; you asked and asked.

about me 'handing people off to Jesus' and leaving.

I'm not going anywhere! I'm not planning on leaving! Did you think I would be so upset after our disagreements that I'd rather just forget all this? I appreciate your replies, I really do! I want to know the impressions people are getting of me and if I can improve them, I want to! You can't change what you don't acknowledge and I acknowledge that I'm not perfect and I haven't stated things the best. I'm working on it though.

I meant inwardly. And I said seems as if. Puh-leeze.

The quote about siblings... you noted Cain and Abel. True, yes, but don’t you think, for this situation, it’s a little extreme to compare it to my comment?

It was a joke. Tee.

Not every fall out siblings have makes them want to kill each other - at least I don't think so!

So, you want a personal story? I’ve got one for you on that topic. I have a sister, an ‘older’ sister, who I can relate that quote to exactly. I love her, but I do not like her AT ALL right now. She has done so many things to hurt my family, namely my mom, and her character is very ugly. Her language is unspeakable (no pun intended), her attitude is only ever defiance when something doesn't go her way, and she's rebelled against every ethical/moral standard a 'good' person would set. I know I LOVE her,

The well do not need a physician, but the sick ~ EMS credo, circa 30 AD

but as I said, I certainly don't like her right now.

BIG misunderstanding in the last part. I was speaking of the Christian forum I told you about, not of this one!

I knew that; no misunderstanding there.

I didn’t mean that my faith and my integrity were attacked on here! These posts have been MILD compared to what I encountered on the “Christian” forum.

Hmmm.. not a great testimonial for…

I went there for support when I was going through one of the toughest times for my family and all I got was condemnation and judgment.

That stinks. I’m sorry to hear it.

Yes, I do want guidance. There are MANY people who are wise beyond their years on here and I am constantly learning just reading the posts. Honestly, this site is still great to me - NOT perfect, but still great.

What would be perfect?

Again, I hope we can get past this ‘squabble’

What squabble? What have I missed? We’re getting to know each other, a bit, with it seems uncommon grace and respect on your part and unusual commitment on mine.

and still learn from each other. I know you have knowledge beyond your years in your profession and have much to give or ‘share’.

My specialty is asking. The poet Rilke wrote: “If the Angel deigns to come it will because you have convinced her, not by tears but by your humble resolve to be always beginning; to be a beginner.”

I respect your feelings and your beliefs.

What, dang blast it, are my beliefs that you respect?

I don’t judge or condemn people for their beliefs, but I know mine and I’m not afraid to state them (as you can painfully see).

Not terribly painful. On a scale of zero to…

Lastly I want to say, thank you for your depth and thank you for telling me what you mean. I learned a lot about you through these discussions and I’m sure that you’ve touched many people in EMS. I’m sure you’ve touched many people just in your life.

><> God Bless you <><

I like your fish there.

In Jesus,

Tiffany

P.S. Michael, you stated in one of your first posts that you were ‘here not much longer’ than I. Do you mean on this site or in years?

I meant on the site. Of course, taking the long view, that would mean on earth too.

If you don’t mind my asking, how old are you?

According to the age printed next to your name, I’m old enough to be your dad, and had the begats been in a hurry, your grand-dad.

Hope to talk to you later.

Always a pleasure. You are a rare flower and I hope you find many who appreciate you.