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Just Plain Ruff

Syrian Refugees

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Please keep this civil as this is a very hot button topic 

Syrian Refugees - what a hot button topic -  

Obama wants them to come to the USA - 10K or more if he can get that many here

27 state governors have said NO, not in our backyard

Immigration law is on Obama's side here though,  the states can symbolically refuse the refugees but they cannot legally keep em out. 

At least one terrorist in the most recent attack in Paris was from Syria, but the others were supposedly French citizens or from Belgium I believe - the narrative is fluiid and changing each day.  

But the Boston bombers were refugee's

I have to say, I for one am more worried about the single or pair of shooters who go into the movie theater or the school and open fire than I am the syrian Refugees because they are not here yet and are not in our cities as of yet.  I have yet to hear of any terrorist attacks by those refugees in the countries that have accepted those syrian refugees except France.  Correct me if I'm wrong though.  

But I'm on the fence here, I want to embrace the american ideal and american dream to these people but on the other hand, I don't want them here based on the off hand risk that some of them do pose. 

This I believe will be the defining moment of our sitting president.  It will be his swan song legacy and if there is one terrorist attack on his watch from a syrian refugee or a group of refugees, his legacy is toast and the legacy of anyone who supported him is done.  

Again please keep this civil.  

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I am willing to take part in this, though it is as a Canadian.

First off, according to the newest information, NONE of the terrorists responsible for the Paris disaster were refuges. They were all European Nationals. One of the passports found was that of an Egyptian national who was a victim, and the other was a fake.

Second, we in Canada are presently gearing up to accept 25000 Syrian refugees, planned for by the end of the year, probably not until some time in January due to logistics and increased security checks. We have a population 1/10 that of the United States. If we can do this with our much smaller resources, you in the States should be able to handle security checks on less than half our number with ease!

Third, yes, the Boston Bombers were refugees, but tragic as that situation was, the number of victims in that incident pales in comparison to the home-grown terror that has been prevalent in the US - from Oklahoma City to Columbine, Sandy Hook to Charleston. Someone who is willing to kill innocents is a criminal, regardless of where they come from.

Fourth, and probably the most important point is that these people are likely to be barred entrance to your country (and possibly mine) on the basis of their religion. Yes, the vast majority of them are Muslim. However, to put it into perspective, the vast majority if the victims of the Islamic State ARE Muslim! The latest conservative estimate is that 100,000 Muslims have been killed by ISIS (or ISIL if you prefer) in the past 2 years. These people who are try to get away from that frightening situation are not terrorists simply because of the religion of their fathers. Too many people use a religion as a justification for violence and murder - the KKK, Jonestown, Waco, Buddhist monks killing people in Myanmar, the list goes on and on. Once again, it is not the fault of the religion, though that is another topic - it is the fault of people who use that religion to justify their motivations. ISIS is a political entity, not a religious one.

The end result of this is that there are over a million people fleeing from the terror in their homelands. Of course they have choices - join ISIS, or stay there and likely die if they do not support these sick individuals. They took the 3rd choice, to leave and try to create lives for themselves and their families in places of peace and acceptance. Those places are proving to be mirages in many cases. Imagine if things got to a point where you feared for the immediate lives of your family - would you not leave, looking for safer places? Would you be angry and frustrated if you were persecuted because of where you came from?

The world has a responsibility as human beings, to BE human. To accept people as honest and caring individuals, regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, or point of origin. These are men, women, and children who need our help to escape a situation that we in the western world have essentially created through our political, social and military policies. The least we can do is accept a mere handful. 10,000 refugees in the United States is peanuts. Your population would outnumber them 3500 to 1!

Finally, God help us if we sit back and do nothing. The last thing we need is for these millions of people to become homeless, disenfranchised, and bitter. THAT is a perfect recipe for radicalization. The more we can accept and integrate into our rich and privileged society, the fewer will become ISIS members of the future. This is what ISIS wants. If we prove them right that the rest of the world is anti-Muslim they can justify much more, and the world will continue to slide into chaos.

Thank you for the soap box!

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My take is rather simplistic.

If you do not take refugees for fear of terrorists hidden in their midst, then you become a target for terrorists because of your closed borders.

If you take refugees, then you may have allowed a few terrorists in that may take advantage of the new freedom and you're a target because you're taking people away from their homelands.

Regardless, we're targets for terrorists and they're going to get here one way or another. If there is a terrorist that does not want to go through screening checks, he'll still find a way into the country.

I think that is a pointless debate.

What I find having greater merit for debate is that the population is up in arms because the federal government is going to spend $25,000,000.00 to bring in 25,000 refugees rather than invest that money on social programs that would benefit those who are current residents. Thing is, that's only $1,000 per refugee. Not a lot of money when put into context.

I think the most profound argument I have heard yet is that the people who emigrate from the poorer countries of the world are those who are actually the most capable of creating change and improving their impoverished nations. As an example, Why is it that doctors from impoverished third world countries are practicing medicine in Canada and the United States whilst doctors from here end up volunteering to go to these third world countries to donate their time. What we are doing is stripping these countries of their best and brightest and preventing them from becoming developed nations.

Edited by Arctickat

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If terrorists really want to get into the country, they will.....somehow. They are probably more likely to sneak across the Mexican border. And in greater numbers. As Arctickat stated above, we're targets. We are the most hated nation for members of Isis. If we show fear, they are happy. I, for one, have no desire to please them. (The terrorists)

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My thoughts have been changing on this matter, I have more to say but I'm at work.  But after all the hateful meme's, the hateful statements and from what I have been reading from non-judgemental websites and the sites that I believe are truthful and provide information that is valid, my viewpoint has changed, but it's tempered with caution.  

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Just my point of view, more or less from inside: We're dealing with refugees from Syria and other countries at a daily basis as Germany is as well a main European target for their getaway and a main transit country to other european nations. I live in close relation to the south-eastern borders (just an hour away), had helped building shelters, organized food logistics and am one of those responsible to organize EMS upgrades (i.e. additional ambulance stationing) due to the situation. I have access to the daily reports from our central communication and information center organizing the first shelter areas and transport logistics at the borders.

At the moment, there are more than 5'000 refugees per day crossing our borders, far more still at the gate. Volunteers and paid helpers including police and military do a hell of a work to meet the needs of them. Families, females and males, unaccompanied young people from all ages, newly born (actually several births in our shelters or in trains) up to senior level (allthough rarely far over 50 years old) had a rough time to get here.

I know stories from their decision to flee, including seeing or beeing target of barbarous cruelty, leaving relatives and property behind, to crossing the mediterrean sea by totally unsuitable boats up to wandering through countries they don't understand and which are more or less hostile or totally overextended in their capability of help at best.

Fact 1: they need immedeate help.

Fact 2: they don't want to flee, they're forced.

Fact 3: if there is peace for them and their families in their home countries, they would be happy to get back.

It's not a Middle-East or European problem, it's a humanitarian task for all of us, globally!

The organization that called itself "Islamic State" is just some fascist entity with a fake religious motivation, bringing hate and harm to humans. This has to be stopped! But while politicians sort things out how to do that, there are humans, women, men, children who need help. Talking about 10'000 or 25'000 people is a joke. That's what we do in a few days. Week per week, month per month. I recently checked our state wide logbook, the first entry is from October 2014, when the first camp was built and the event starts to be coordinated by a central body. Over a year ago now!

Still now politicians talk about "coordinating the refugee wave" (hell, it's already become a normal state for all those working on it). Still now politicians talk about what has to be done to stop this. Unfortunately, a lot of them talk about building just more fences. A good question I heard in a talkshow was: "If you build fences, do you care for the bodies that will pile up before them?" (followed by silence for a few minutes).

I'm glad that the UN conference last weekend obviously had some outcome: cutting finance flow for IS and building up a joint effort fight the cause. Refugees are "just" a symptom, which makes them not less important.

For those who think refugees are a direct terrorist threat, please answer just a short quiz what you would do as a terrorist wanting to enter a country:

  1. You will take a stressful route through land & mountains, enter a inappropirate rubber boat to cross the mediterrean see with a high probability to sink, stay in refugee camps where all other people will hate you because you are the cause of their trouble, then getting away from police registration with nothing more on you than your clothes and your knapsack, just for joining a terror cell after your 2 week walk (I know refugees who needed a year) OR
  2. You will take the money from drug trade and stolen property, buy a fake passport, enter a comfortable airplane or rent a fine middle class car, then traveling to your destination in a relaxed state of mind just as a normal tourist would do.

Option 1 or 2? For me, it's pretty clear. As of now, the story about the terrorist in Paris who has entered by a refugee route seems to be fake (fake passport/identity theft). I can't rule that out, especially when young refugees experience a hostile environment in their country of destination - and yes, they sure are vulnerable to fascist indoctrination. Just as anyone else - remember, we in Germany have learnt a lesson there...

I know a bunch of young males here in my village ("unattended underaged refugees", actually from 13 to 18 years old) who are very ambitious in learning the language of their new country, wanting to get a job and are integrated in the local sports community (actually ~8 of them attending training in the local football team). They have all a past, I wouldn't wish to my child, never. Yet, they are more or less happy, cheerful kicking the ball on the local training ground, which is just a few streets away from my home. Seems it works, at least a bit, to give them hope.

The final solution will be difficult: bombing and/or sending ground troops won't help, it just would heat up the conflict, give more justification to IS and hit innocent civilians. Personally, I don't see a military solution to a multi-facet problem. I don't know how and when it will be solved, but I sincerely hope, it will get done.

As long as politicians sort that out, we have to care for those who are in immedeate danger at our gates. Taking and caring for several 1'000 refugees is a start. Remember: We here cope with 5'000 - 10'000 refugees per day, and we're even not the first contact country in the European Union. Yes, we need help. But far more, THEY need help!

Thank you for listening!

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thanks Bernhard for the firsthand perspective.  I think that if those in the US had that information, we might have a somewhat different perspective on this situation.  

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You're welcome!

Scariest thing at the moment is, that winter time here is just coming. We have a relatively warm autumn, usually we should have got the first frost and snow by now. However, it will come soon.

Then, and this will be a tough call, we will have real winter. Winter in Germany and Austria (two of the main passing countries for refugees) is a real threat to outdoor life. Ice covered surfaces, several meters (1 meter = 3 feet) of snow, strong winds and freezing cold of about -5 to -10° Celsius (23 to 14° Fahrenheit) is just a usual daily phenomenon here between November and April.

We already experience infectious rates up to 100% on incoming refugees, first with childrens, soon after on all others in the camp. I dare not to imagine if it gets real cold and icy. This sure will be deadly to refugees, all of them walking, not beeing sufficiently sheltered on all their way and wearing summer clothes. Especially children. I fear we'll face another escalation of this humanitarian disaster just at our gates. :(

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You're welcome!

Scariest thing at the moment is, that winter time here is just coming. We have a relatively warm autumn, usually we should have got the first frost and snow by now. However, it will come soon.

Then, and this will be a tough call, we will have real winter. Winter in Germany and Austria (two of the main passing countries for refugees) is a real threat to outdoor life. Ice covered surfaces, several meters (1 meter = 3 feet) of snow, strong winds and freezing cold of about -5 to -10° Celsius (23 to 14° Fahrenheit) is just a usual daily phenomenon here between November and April.

We already experience infectious rates up to 100% on incoming refugees, first with childrens, soon after on all others in the camp. I dare not to imagine if it gets real cold and icy. This sure will be deadly to refugees, all of them walking, not beeing sufficiently sheltered on all their way and wearing summer clothes. Especially children. I fear we'll face another escalation of this humanitarian disaster just at our gates. :(

This is a very realistic concern regarding any refugees coming to Canada also. In the end I support taking in refugees with a proper screening process but I'm concerned our own in country resources are not prepared to care for these people adequately. 

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Canadian Red Cross already helps us out here. A report from a refugee camp by a canadian Red Cross worker: http://www.redcross.ca/blog/2015/11/translating-the-refugee-crisis--stories-from-germany

The camp she talks about is just in the neighbour county, not far away from me.

 

By the way, to EMTCity administrators: I find it totally inappropriate to automatically set links into postings. My term "summer clothes", describing a deadly risk to refugee children was linked to an Amazon site with a cheering girl selling "Lovely Baby Girl's Summer Clothes Denim Dress + Cotton Coat + Belt Outfits Sets". Not funny. :(

Apart from beeing totally inappropriate in the given context, inserting links in someone's posting generally is no good netiquette, since it may appear as if I had set the link. Financing the site is OK, but not changing someones texts and intention for the sake of money. If this won't be stopped, I'll be out of activity here soon. Really.

EDIT: it just happened with this text, too. "Link added by VigLink" is the caption. Please stop that!

Edited by Bernhard

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