Why I'm pro gay marriage

[HERBIE1]

Well, in the spirit of individualism, isn't it ours to tweak? I tend not to believe that any one character is responsible for all living creatures, events, disasters, the weather, etc., on the face of this Planet that we call Earth. I mean, at one point, you have a being, with a stone. At another point, you have 2c4, on a computer made of plastic, putting thoughts in words, and someone eight thousand miles away knows about it twenty seconds later. How the hell we got from point A to point Z times 99 Billion+, I haven't the foggiest of clues. But I'm pretty sure it involved some tweaking of what humankind was supposed to be doing, in the eyes of, whatever caused humankind to develop.

Keep in mind, I'm not feeling very well, kind of like I'm going to puke, or faint from uber severe abdominal cramps...and I may have over thought my response to this one, just a tad. If you're easily offended, to fricken bad, cry a river, build a bridge and go get me some Pepto-Bismol.

LOL

I think you might be delirious- pretty whacked out. Hope you feel better.

To answer your question whether or not life is ours to tweak. I guess it depends on your point of view about a God, and evolution.

[tcripp]

To answer your question whether or not life is ours to tweak. I guess it depends on your point of view about a God, and evolution.

What if your view point is that God is allowing us to do the tweaking? Isn't it something like "all things are possible through Him"?

[HERBIE1]

What if your view point is that God is allowing us to do the tweaking? Isn't it something like "all things are possible through Him"?

Not to bash your or anyone else's religious beliefs, but isn't this the "beauty" of religion? If you can't explain something, it's God's will. If you CAN explain something but don't like the outcome- it's still God's will. To me that makes it too easy to absolve yourself of responsibility for your actions. Do we not have ANY free will or choice in our lives or are we just puppets performing according to some master plan? I know there are plenty of folks who believe that but I'm sorry- I just don't buy it.

I hear it all the time- a dirt bag gang banger gets killed because he chose a life of crime, violence, and drugs and finally ends up on the wrong end of a bullet. They interview the grieving mom who says it was God's will that he died. NO- it was his stupid choices that made him dead- God had nothing to do with it, unless you think God wanted this kid to sell dope, kill other people, and ruin countless lives. If that's truly God's plan, I'm thinking he has a sadistic side to him.

I get what you are saying,but "all things are possible" is a bunch of malarkey. We as human beings have limitations. We are fallible, we make stupid choices, and even among the best of us, sometimes bad things happen we have no control over.

(posted before i was finished)

In the topic at hand, if we make choices that save, fix, alter, or even end someone's life, that is essentially playing God to some religions, which is why some eschew modern medicine, others refuse blood products, others simply rely on praying so God can fix their diabetes, cancer, MS, or any other problem they may have, That's fine- your choice, but I'm glad I was not raised that way- I'd probably be blind right now. Thankfully my parents took me to a top notch eye surgeon who saved my sight instead of praying away the problem.

Edited December 3, 2011 by HERBIE1

[Just Plain Ruff]

Yes, there is such a thing as personal responsibility and taking responsibility for your actions. You have the will to do anything you want in life, turn to crime, your choice, turn to god, your choice.

But my belief is that God gave me free will and I act on that free will every day.

If something bad happens to me, I don't say "Curse you God, you did this to me" Nope, I say "I know not to make that mistake again"

Let me let you in on a little personal experience. My wife when pregnant with our "son" William the pregnancy was a rocky one. From no heartbeat at 6 weeks gestation and the OB doc then wanting to do a D&C on Jenny. Jennifer requested a 2nd ultrasound 1 week later and after the asshole doctor agreed we went to the ultrasound. At that ultrasound there was a heartbeat. Little light blipping on the screen of the Ultrasound monitor. There was also a small blood clot on the placenta.(ominous sign but we went with the flow though).

For the next 10 weeks we watched this little life grow inside my wife until my wife felt a funny feeling in her stomach. We called the new OB doc's (high risk perinatologists at a top notch hospital in KC MO). They had been her doctor for about 8 weeks and they scheduled the ultrasound that eventually was when we found out that our child had died in utero.

We scheduled a delivery for three days hence. Jennifer went through this with all the emotions you can expect. I was the stoic one of course. I've seen death, I've seen life, you know, the works.

Jennifer delivered a 17 week gestation baby boy. He was formed perfectly but just dead.

I'm a religious guy, many on here will attest to that. I did not blame god even though many people in my church asked me if I did. I know that death happens, I know that there are just some things that are not to be. Is that God's fault, no. Is it mine, no it isn't.

But what I did ask God was why. I know I would not get an answer. I didn't expect one. My wife did not either.

There are just some things not meant to be.

Do I blame God for that or anything else that befalls me, no I don't. It's not the way that I believe and not the way I look to religion.

do I believe that the baby is in heaven waiting for me? I'm not sure. I think so but since I don't know what happens after we die, if we just cease to exist like some of my atheist friends believe, or is there a definate place called heaven and hell? I don't know.

I do know what it says in the bible, and it says there is heaven and hell. I believe the book but until I make it to either place or just cease to exist I have to be skeptical. I hope that there is a heaven but it cannot be proven to me other than what a book says so I remain a skeptic.

[akflightmedic]

If you cannot blame "him" for all that goes bad why do you thank "him" when it all goes well?

[Just Plain Ruff]

Ak, I do not thank him for all that goes well. Others may but I do not. Most of what I've done in my life have been because of me, not anyone else. I'm sure you will try to drive a truck through that comment as well since you've done your best to do that in the past with me.

But my achievements are mine alone, do I thank God for every little thing that goes right, I don't think so. do I curse god for every little thing that goes wrong, nope, I don't.

[HERBIE1]

Yes, there is such a thing as personal responsibility and taking responsibility for your actions. You have the will to do anything you want in life, turn to crime, your choice, turn to god, your choice.

But my belief is that God gave me free will and I act on that free will every day.

If something bad happens to me, I don't say "Curse you God, you did this to me" Nope, I say "I know not to make that mistake again"

Let me let you in on a little personal experience. My wife when pregnant with our "son" William the pregnancy was a rocky one. From no heartbeat at 6 weeks gestation and the OB doc then wanting to do a D&C on Jenny. Jennifer requested a 2nd ultrasound 1 week later and after the asshole doctor agreed we went to the ultrasound. At that ultrasound there was a heartbeat. Little light blipping on the screen of the Ultrasound monitor. There was also a small blood clot on the placenta.(ominous sign but we went with the flow though).

For the next 10 weeks we watched this little life grow inside my wife until my wife felt a funny feeling in her stomach. We called the new OB doc's (high risk perinatologists at a top notch hospital in KC MO). They had been her doctor for about 8 weeks and they scheduled the ultrasound that eventually was when we found out that our child had died in utero.

We scheduled a delivery for three days hence. Jennifer went through this with all the emotions you can expect. I was the stoic one of course. I've seen death, I've seen life, you know, the works.

Jennifer delivered a 17 week gestation baby boy. He was formed perfectly but just dead.

I'm a religious guy, many on here will attest to that. I did not blame god even though many people in my church asked me if I did. I know that death happens, I know that there are just some things that are not to be. Is that God's fault, no. Is it mine, no it isn't.

But what I did ask God was why. I know I would not get an answer. I didn't expect one. My wife did not either.

There are just some things not meant to be.

Do I blame God for that or anything else that befalls me, no I don't. It's not the way that I believe and not the way I look to religion.

do I believe that the baby is in heaven waiting for me? I'm not sure. I think so but since I don't know what happens after we die, if we just cease to exist like some of my atheist friends believe, or is there a definate place called heaven and hell? I don't know.

I do know what it says in the bible, and it says there is heaven and hell. I believe the book but until I make it to either place or just cease to exist I have to be skeptical. I hope that there is a heaven but it cannot be proven to me other than what a book says so I remain a skeptic.

It sounds like you have a healthy viewpoint on this, Ruff. One thing I do find as odd though is that you believe in God, yet are unsure if there is a heaven or hell. Not busting your balls here, just pointing out something that struck me as I read your post. I cannot imagine what you went through- my only personal exposure is from a close friend who delivered a full term still born baby boy. I almost felt guilty because we had 3 happy, healthy kids. This mom was from a die hard Italian catholic family and her 80+ year old mother still goes to church every day, but she herself did not blame or curse God for what happened either.

To me, having God grant us free will isn't really free will. I guess either you believe or you don't, but there are also many shades of "belief". Many(or dare I say MOST?) Catholics think nothing of using birth control, or having premarital sex, so I guess it's the cafeteria catholic- pick which parts of your religious doctrine you choose to abide by.

Me- well I am at a crossroads in my faith- or lack there of. Based on what's happened to me in the last couple years, I question EVERYTHING. I am even looking into alternative "faiths" to help me find some answers and gain my center. We'll see how that goes.

BTW-Holy thread derail, Batman- how the hell did this topic go from pro gay marriage to THIS? LOL

[Just Plain Ruff]

Well I put that question of heaven and hell solely on the back of AK. He made me think about it in more robust terms.

OK, please do not hammer me on this next thing. I"m actually in a crossroads of my faith as well, not a crisis of faith but merely a qeustioning.

Yes the bible specifically says that there is a heaven and a hell. I do believe that but I also know that the bible is a book that was written many many years ago. It was passed down and changed version to version. I know it's consistent in saying what it says over and over and across versions but what I was trying to actually say is to discuss what AK told me once when I asked what the City thought happened after you died.

AK said that he just would cease to exist. No heaven, no hell. No purgatory.

The bible makes heaven sound awesome and I do hope that there is a heaven but the bible also says that there is a hell and it's truly a bad place.

But these are words written over thousands of years and at times those words can be changed or their meanings changed.

No-one knows that there is a heaven or a hell, we only know that the bible which is the word of God per the religious and religious scholars says that there is a heaven and hell. No-one has been there, no one has come back and told me or anyone else that they have been to heaven or hell and they are real.

I only can go by what is written in the book called the bible and since i believe that the bible is Gods word then I must believe that there is a heaven and hell but until I get to either one of them or just cease to exist, then I nor anyone else truly knows, be they either Atheist, agnostic or Christian.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Ruffems

[HERBIE1]

Well I put that question of heaven and hell solely on the back of AK. He made me think about it in more robust terms.

OK, please do not hammer me on this next thing. I"m actually in a crossroads of my faith as well, not a crisis of faith but merely a qeustioning.

Yes the bible specifically says that there is a heaven and a hell. I do believe that but I also know that the bible is a book that was written many many years ago. It was passed down and changed version to version. I know it's consistent in saying what it says over and over and across versions but what I was trying to actually say is to discuss what AK told me once when I asked what the City thought happened after you died.

AK said that he just would cease to exist. No heaven, no hell. No purgatory.

The bible makes heaven sound awesome and I do hope that there is a heaven but the bible also says that there is a hell and it's truly a bad place.

But these are words written over thousands of years and at times those words can be changed or their meanings changed.

No-one knows that there is a heaven or a hell, we only know that the bible which is the word of God per the religious and religious scholars says that there is a heaven and hell. No-one has been there, no one has come back and told me or anyone else that they have been to heaven or hell and they are real.

I only can go by what is written in the book called the bible and since i believe that the bible is Gods word then I must believe that there is a heaven and hell but until I get to either one of them or just cease to exist, then I nor anyone else truly knows, be they either Atheist, agnostic or Christian.

No hammering here. I honestly don't know what I believe anymore. After my nephew was killed last year, I actually went to my local church(for the first time in years) and sat in the back for awhile. I was looking for answers, a place for reflection, an epiphany- ANYTHING to help me cope. Didn't work.

Not sure what happens after we die, but if there IS a heaven, I think I'm OK- I'm not too horrible of a person. If there's nothing- well, I guess I become worm food like everyone else. It would be nice if we could have just one shred of proof of life after death, but for those with faith, by definition, proof is not necessary.

[Just Plain Ruff]

And your last sentence is profound. If you are a person of faith then proof isn't necessary.