Treating Patients While Off-duty

[paramedicmike]

Don't confuse a legal duty to act with feeling a moral obligation to act. They are two different concepts. When off duty we have no legal responsibility to stop, render aid or do anything to help (unless you are in VT or MN as detailed below). Feeling a moral obligation to provide assistance is an individual choice and is based on many factors.

Only Vermont and Minnesota have laws that mandate someone, anyone, stop to render aid. Those laws apply to everyone and not just to off duty first responder, nurse, PA or physician.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Don't confuse a legal duty to act with feeling a moral obligation to act. They are two different concepts. When off duty we have no legal responsibility to stop, render aid or do anything to help (unless you are in VT or MN as detailed below). Feeling a moral obligation to provide assistance is an individual choice and is based on many factors.

Only Vermont and Minnesota have laws that mandate someone, anyone, stop to render aid. Those laws apply to everyone and not just to off duty first responder, nurse, PA or physician.

That's just my point Mike. I don't like it when people throw out that because I'm a medic I have some DUTY to act like if I don't I'll get in trouble.

Morally, do I feel at times that I should stop? Yes, and sometimes if the feeling is there, when the stars align into a straight line I will stop and usually it is with good outcomes like I was able to do something to help the people.

but the majority of the time, I'm not going to be doing anything more than looking like a bystander because I have no equipment to use other than what is in my car and that usually consists of fast food wrappers and bottles of coke zero so if the car is on fire I can pour my coke zero on the fire.

if you feel morally obligated to stop or you say that I'm morally obligated to stop that's one thing but don't tell me or anyone else that they have a duty to act. Thats rubbish.

[paramedicmike]

You and I were posting at the same time, Ruff. I know you know the difference. Your posts have made it clear you have a well reasoned explanation for your choices.

[Happiness]

Being from such a small town I do feel that I should stop, one of my problems is that I am 9/10 time on call, and the last time I called dispatch (she was a bag is all I can say) she made me feel like I was out trolling for pts (and it took me 10 mins to convince him he needed an ambulance. Anyways I witness a fall 54 yr old male who is disabled, he was avoiding a car and kind of fell back, gentle is the only word I can think of. I didnt want to stop as I was on my way to the store for dog food but it was in the end a good thing. He is always in pain so it was hard to gage, but when he said I have pain on pain I clued in, ended up being a fractured femur (still cant see it) so bad that if he had stood up it would have gone into his pelvis and then a whole new can worms.

When I travel I carry gloves and a bag and I will stop, because when I think about it all, if I was in an accident I would want someone qualified to stop for me even if they just held my hand and talked to me while the ambulance showed up.

[crotchitymedic1986]

Quote you a law ? Read your Bible. If you are atheist I guess you have no obligations except to your selfish self. The fact that you say "you used to stop all the time" tells me that you know you are wrong now. In your early years you did the right thing, now that you are old, lazy, and burned out, you choose to do the wrong thing.

[Just Plain Ruff]

See there is the moral argument yet you said we have a duty to act. Having a duty to act makes it sound like since there's a duty, that there is a requirement to stop.

Don't quote the bible to me. I'm not going down that road anymore here.

I don't stop because theres not a whole hell of a lot to do if I have no equipment.

You might stop and that's your prerogitive (sic) but I'm not you and you aren't me.

I'm also not burned out so don't label me as such. Nor am I lazy but I am old.

I just do not stop and it's good of you to have such concern for my old lazy burned out self, I'm touched. Oh I forgot, our good old Crotchity who is the moral compass for this group and for the world itself. If crotchity does it then it must be the right thing.

What the hell am I justifying myself to you for. Jeesh, my sugar must be getting low.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Ruffems

[JakeEMTP]

Yep. I simply cannot believe these dumb untrained idiots did what they did...too bad there was no trained EMT or Medic to instruct them to leave the victim alone!

That was great! It is amazing what one is capable of when the adrenalin is flowing. The only thing I heard reported that was somewhat disturbing was the LEO instructing the good folks to leave the pt. 5 ft from a burning vehicle.

Edited September 21, 2011 by JakeEMTP

[paramedicmike]

The dude in the suit, who I've seen reported is the driver of the car, drives me crazy. At one point he's leaning up against the end of the car. At no point does he attempt to help. Insanity.

[EMTDenny]

That was great! It is amazing what one is capable of when the adrenalin is flowing. The only thing I heard reported that was somewhat disturbing was the LEO instructing the good folks to leave the pt. 5 ft from a burning vehicle.

Once i saw this video all I can say was WOW!! I mean that is amazing. Wonderful thing how everybody got together in front of a burning object and risk their life to save a life. But, being a new EMT and all the time they kept teaching us about C-spine man did they really do the guy a favor by dragging him out? If his C-spine was compromise I'd say it definitely made it worst. ( I could be wrong, if so please correct me) The cop started out doing a good thing by holding C-spine., but then he let go!!!

[ERDoc]

If it comes down to leaving him under a burning car or holding c-spine, get him out from under the car. C-spine injuries are not nearly as common as they are made out to be in EMT class. Most people do not end up with broken necks.