9/11 Ten Years Later

[ERDoc]

I will refrain from any further comments on this thread

Probably the best thing you've ever posted.

There have been plenty of Muslims who have spoken out against the Sept 11th attacks. The difference between the Muslims and the Catholic church is that the Catholic church has a central institution that carries the power and acts as the voice of the entire church. The Muslims do not have this central pulpit so when some small mosque speaks out, no one listens. When the pope speaks, he has a huge audience. There are extremists from all religions. How much coverage they get depends on the size of their targets. The bombing of an abortion clinic that kills 2 people will not get as much play as 2 planes that bring down the towers and kill almost 3000.

[hatelilpeepees]

I am not sure I agree Doc. Yes this is a small portion of the "Muslim Religion", but Muslims do have central voices. I would point to the political leaders of Afghanistan and Pakistan since both countries are primarily the same religion. I think we can also debate whether Muslim is a religion versus a philosophy but that is another thread. They have the capability to stop the Taliban and Alquida but choose not to. And not only do they let them operate right under their nose, they probably provide the financing.

[chbare]

However, I've yet to see major Christian leaders come out and say, "hey about the whole dark ages thing, the Inquisition and the crusades, our bad, sorry about that." I think we can all agree that there exist factions of radical Islam; however, I am not about to label entire nations of people based on this fact. Also, Pakistan and Afghanistan are in states of near chaos with drug trades, massive corruption and unstable governments running amuck. I am not sure they are the best examples of countries that have the capability to stop radical Muslim terrorism.

While I agree that more can and should be done and perhaps Muslim leaders should take the lead, but the situation is far more complicated than many could imagine. Finally, both countries are not primarily the same religion in the sense that many factions of Islam exist and this causes significant tension among Muslims. The struggle between Shiite and Sunni Muslims among other groups is well known to illustrate one example.

[ERDoc]

However, I've yet to see major Christian leaders come out and say, "hey about the whole dark ages thing, the Inquisition and the crusades, our bad, sorry about that."

Considering they only vindicated Galileo in 1992 (23 years after we landed on the moon), I wouldn't hold your breath waiting.

[DwayneEMTP]

As I have yet to see a Christian group actively attacking the KKK..a well known Christian organization.

We keep ignoring it, though it's been said over and over, the Koran and the Christian bible are the same document until the time of Jesus.

Being male doesn't cause autism, though most autistics are male...Being white does not mean you will become a KKK member, though to the best of my knowledge all (most?) KKK members are white...and on and on and on...

What about the Crusades? And wait..wasn't Hitler a Catholic? McVeigh?

As chbare states, until you've lived among a nearly entire community of Muslims, as we did in Afg, it is likely impossible to convince you that the evil amongst the Muslims in general is tiny. They are kind, and funny, and loving, and generous for the most part. At least to their ability to be so, the same as any human. And certainly more pious and humble than any other religious followers I've ever met.

I love to work these problems through my head but it's become more than obvious that those that choose to obtain their world views from sound bites on the television instead of from real world observation will likely never be swayed.

Dwayne

Crotchity's type of view will never be cured as he chooses to approach the Muslims the way that he professes that non blacks approach the blacks...if there is one bad, or even enough to justify a stereotype, then they are all obviously bad...

Welcome back to the good ol' days of witch burnings and Japanese interment camps...

Craziness....

Dwayne

[uglyEMT]

Since I took the weekend off from the world and unplugged I missed this thread earlier. I glanced through most of the thread to get the jist of where it was heading so I think I can post and be part of the thread.

10 years ago on a bright sunny 68 degree Tuesday I watched my world fall apart before my eyes. I watched as 3000 people laost their lives and many many more were effected because of it. I watched as everyone turned grey, no creed, no color, no nationality, GREY. It was BEAUTIFUL!!! I watched as human beings became one. I worked 72 hours on a pile of steaming debris with my fellow humans. We as humans cried together, worked together, prayed together, felt pain together.

I was on a bucket brigade and some folks on the same were Muslim. They cried the same tears as I did. Felt the same pain as I did. Had the same anger at 11 men that I did. I still talk to them today and they still feel what I feel today. 10 years later they hate the same 11 men that caused this atrocity.

This wasn't a country that attacked us, this wasn't a religon that attacked us. This was 11 men that attacked us. I don't think 11 men represent an entire religon, country or community. Just as Oklahoma doesn't represent all Americans 9/11 doesn't represent all Muslims. It is the short sighted, fear mongering, nieve people that belive they do.

I have never been to the Middle East or Indonesea but I would like tothink that if and when I do I would be looked at and treated as a fellow human being. I know I may be looking for rainbows but hopefully not.

Hopefully this makes sense....

Edited September 12, 2011 by UGLyEMT

[Just Plain Ruff]

I think that every religion, race and creed has bad apples. Not every muslim is a terrorist, not every white guy is a serial killer or pedophile.

Not every christian is a crusader

For every bad deed that past religions and societies have done, do we need to provide reparations for those acts? Apologies? Yep. reparations no.

Unfortunately there have been terrible things done in the name of religion and Christianity is right up there at the top but that's not really the case anymore. I don't see an apology any time soon. I tend to like to look forward and not dwell on the past. It's counterproductive at times. Remember the past, make sure the past doesn't come back in a new guise and be ever vigilent.

AK, CH, Dwayne, Dust and many others have lived in those communities and amongst the Muslims and I can't share a common frame of reference so I defer to their comments. But to lump in all muslims as terrorists is simply stupid and ludicrous. Even a pure bread white guy can understand that.

[DFIB]

Pure bred white guy? Does such an animal exist?

[DwayneEMTP]

First off, good on you girl for being brave enough to have a contrary opinion. I'm going to disagree with you, and likely in my straight forward way, but I didn't want to take a chance that you would construe that as an attack. I'm truly interested in your opinion.

...I am not sure I agree Doc. Yes this is a small portion of the "Muslim Religion", but Muslims do have central voices. I would point to the political leaders of Afghanistan and Pakistan since both countries are primarily the same religion.

Can you name one for me, without using Google? The doc referenced the Pope, and I'm guessing that we all can agree that he speaks for Catholics. Who speaks for Muslims? Who specifically would you point to for those comments?

As the Doc mentioned, I too seem to remember many local Muslim leaders risking their lives to come forward to speak out against the terrorist acts. Risked their lives not by identifying themselves as rebel Muslims and in doing so be targeted by terrorists, but by showing their faces in their local communities as Muslim and exposing themselves and their families to attacks from their neighbors. That truly makes my heart hurt.

...I think we can also debate whether Muslim is a religion versus a philosophy but that is another thread.

I think that would apply to all religions as well, not just the Muslims.

...They have the capability to stop the Taliban and Alquida but choose not to.

Again, who are "they"?

...And not only do they let them operate right under their nose, they probably provide the financing.

I could agree here if we're talking about Pakistan. But Afghanistan? No...More Taliban are killed and captured due to the efforts of the village Afghanis than any other way. You're trying to make this a simple, straight forward issue in that country. You seem to believe that you're either Taliban, or not. And that's simply not the case.

The Taliban are well armed, with American weapons, (Those given to them to help chase the Russians out of their country) and soulless, in my opinion. When they choose you to fight for them you either fight, or show your hatred of Allah and the Koran, which then gives them the right to rain down any kind of pain, and humiliation, up to and very often including death, upon your family. For people like me, that leaves no real decision to be made. Unless of course you'd allow your family to be molested and killed to stand upon your ideals instead of fight?

And I'm curious, though of course it's none of my business, as to your religious affiliations, if any? What do you make of the comments, some from well respected members on the site, that Christians and Muslims are operating from the same playbook? That the Christian Bible and Koran are the same document, yet Christians have used it to cause much more pain and death than the Taliban have even considered possible? How do you respond to those comments? And how then do you not despise Christians even more so than Muslims?

For me, I'll simply restate what I've stated before. I will continue to refuse to live my life based on generalizations and stereotypes. I will continue to believe that the world is full of amazing, kind, generous people peppered with assholes. I will continue to choose the unpopular opinion when I believe it to be right. And I will continue to defend my family, my friends, and my neighbors to the best of my ability to do so whether they be white, black, gay, straight, Catholic, Muslim, or Atheist.

I will also attack any of those people with a vengeance as soon as I see any sign that they are a threat to my family, community or country.

Muslims are believed by many to be evil, violent, sneaky beasts set on world domination. Yet my experience, having spoken and put my hands on literally thousands of Afg Muslims shows little sign of that. Atheists are believed by many to be soulless, amoral, self centered automatons, yet my families future, and my life in particular has been changed forever because of my friendship with akflightmedic. Christians are 'supposed' to be kind, loving, unselfish pillars of the community, yet I've watched them blow up buildings, hang blacks, shoot abortion doctors, all in the name of their God.

Micro stereotypes may sometimes hold true, or so it's appeared to me from an anecdotal point of view, but I've never seen the case where they've held up on a macro scale. Chbare could probably give us some quantum string theory explanation for that. But me? Yeah, I have no concrete idea why that might be, though some weak theories do play in my head...

We celebrate that evil didn't win on Sept 11, 10 years past. But I disagree. The terrorist showed the world our shallow thinking, and willingness to hate and attack, without serious thought or debate, the first shadow that shows in our window. I believe that that is forgivable in the moment, as we're still just human children evolutionarily speaking, but 10 years later? It shows the world our Achilles heal...and that's a terrible and dangerous thing I believe.

Dwayne

[ERDoc]

Since I was the one to first mention the pope, I'll play along. Pope Benedict XVI. I'll admit that off the top of my head I don't recall his real first name but his last name is Ratzinger. I didn't cite his name because it was irrelevant. Do you ever call Barak Obama, "the president" or do you always call him President Obama? How is this relevant to anything?

As usual, I have to agree with Dwayne. Sept 11th allowed us to show both sides of America. We saw how awesome we could be but it also showed our dark side and our ignorance. We had ignorant (mostly white) Americans going after people who weren't even Muslim. They were going after Sikhs and Hindus.