Breaking into houses

[Bernhard]

Mission Accomplished

I'm too good for this world. But I somewhat like your attitude.

[DwayneEMTP]

Just for grins, lets take the same scenario, only a person is visible in the floor inside, appears unresponsive but was speaking with dispatch just moments before, and there is a large dog attacking each window that you try to open...

Rural town, no animal control within 2 hrs...

Dwayne

[tniuqs]

Dwayne have had that "real life" with a huge Rottweiler standing over his master with more saliva than a komodo dragon.

Diversion: #1-We played "chase the medic" from front door to back door to another, epic fail.

Pharmo: #2 try- 4mgs /kg of Anectine (the whole 400 bottle) in a 20 cc syringe, biggest short 14 ga we could find, with plunger taped with duct tape and a old shovel handle. That didn't work the dawg shredded it, it work's well for bears in a culvert trap because they can't turn fast enough, they can be tubed blind, surprisingly easy (the animal lab is a well worthwhile Con Ed).

Restraint: #3 try rope lasso (sp) on a stick, dawg won again ...

Non Lethal: #4: RCMP showed up tries pepper now (as stated in prior threads goal focused critters it just doesn't phase them)

Lethal: .40 cal to the bean, problem solved.

The patients down time was just way too long (35 minutes from his 911 call phone in hand) we worked him for 30 minutes then called him .. sure wish we had 10 smokies on that call as bait.

[Chief1C]

Animal control? WTF is that? ha ha. Stick a leather glove in it's mouth so it has something to chew on, and wrap wide gauze around its head. This won't prevent it from breathing, and likely it can remove it alone once calmed down. Then spray air from a cylinder in its face, and back it into a room with a door.

Edited August 6, 2011 by 2c4

[Bernhard]

As a dog owner and with a wife knowing everything about dogs plus having multiple scary calls with dogs involved and survived all of them (plus keeping the dogs alive) I would say the following:

Dogs are pretty predictable and are very bad poker players. Usually they simply want to keep control over the house if the owner can't do it, that's why they're scared like hell with a lot of unknown people coming to the door. Just keep cool and assume control, use a clear body language and a strict & deep voice, if needed escalate to shouting to the dog all the way long (imagine a Marine drill instructor). instantly be the most respectable beeing on scene (if random firefighters salute to you, you're on the right way). Give the dog clear commands with voice and hand signals (point to indicate direction or flat hand to indicate "to the ground"), the dog will understand them when given with clear intention even if never learned. Try to move the dog into an unused room or hook a leash on them (only if the dog already has a collar on). Be sure to have no distraction nearby, noone should do something out of your control (i.e. start to care for the patient in view of the dog, break a window in the back of the dog or else). To control this may be the hardest thing on such a scene, someone seems to always knows it better and does something silly...with you beeing the nearest one to the dog. That would be my greatest worry.

Most dogs and especially the random big dogs soon will be glad to have someone in charge on scene. Their social behaviour is based on a very strict hierarchy, and you have to show you're on the upper side. For a human and especially a medic this should be easy, even when you're not belonging to the pack. Dogs know the difference between other dogs and humans very well, the latter are trusted "in charge" even as a stranger. The trick is to not show any uncertainness - act quick!

This won't work with very good trained guard dogs/police dogs, but they're rare (and they wouldn't make a really big noise before getting you). It may be a scary thing with real sociopathic dogs, but even then it works most of the time. However, if you don't have opportunity to practise (own dog, good dog school), then you may be a little bit on the bad chance side...

I wouldn't recommend beginning with friendly behaviour ("such a cute dog...won't bite lovely EMT, won't you?") or tricks like dog cookies or else. The dog is in stress and wouldn't pay attention or respect you for not beeing strict or trying to play. Cookies would even signal "good behaviour" and the barking won't stop.

If you have a well trained dog with "built in" high hierarchiy level on your side, things are far easier - K9 units are a good replacement for special animal control services. A normal dog most probably won't help unless it's a very good social trainer (that exists among dogs, a lot of dog trainers own such a dog to get sociopathic dogs on the right track). Normal dogs tend to respect the other dog's control area and won't interfer. If you want to try it anyway, get a dog of the other sex. But again, no guarantee with normal, untrained dogs - better try it by having a human getting control over the dog as stated above.

Beside that, catching a dog is a completely other business (here you mostly need a good trained other dog or a experienced animal control team). Our dog's trainer often is called for such situations around here, it's cool how she and her dog take control then.

Anecdotic, I recall a man dropping dead while walking his german shepheard, who was known to be silly and aggressive (the dog). I was able to grab the line after having the dog literally shouted to the ground, then tied it to a bystanders car. At least we kept one of the two alive. However, the dog didn't like me afterwards and always tried to get on the other side of the street when seeing me (was a neighbour, met the widow including the dog several times).

Diversion: #1-We played "chase the medic" from front door to back door to another, epic fail.

Yes, because that just heated the dogs instincts and showed, that medics are something to chase. You lost all other tries from this moment on.

Pharmo: #2 try...Restraint: #3 try...

Don't underestimate a dog's several ten thousand years evolution experience with humans...

...instead use human's ten thousand years experience with dogs. See other posting.

Non Lethal: #4: RCMP showed up tries pepper now (as stated in prior threads goal focused critters it just doesn't phase them)

It doesn't work on humans in stress, it won't work on dogs in stress. Some dog races are literally "built" to never let go even if theyself were severely hurt. A little pepper is nothing compared to the will of a decent hunting dog in defence of it's possession.

Lethal: .40 cal to the bean, problem solved.

You most problaby could have saved your time trying the other tricks. Be confident and show you're the boss or alternatively shoot it. Trying several other tricks may be good for press coverage, though, but don't give you the time needed for the patient.

sure wish we had 10 smokies on that call as bait.

Dogs are pretty good in making up priorities. If it's protecting his house or owner, then any bait would be not interesting enough. To be honest, it would make a good show experience, at least.

Stick a leather glove in it's mouth so it has something to chew on, and wrap wide gauze around its head. This won't prevent it from breathing, and likely it can remove it alone once calmed down.

Most probably the leather glove won't distract a motivated dog long enough to wrap something around it. It just sends the signal of "I try to fight it out with you" - instead of "DON'T EVER THINK OF GETTING YOUR MUZZLE CLOSE TO ME!".

Then spray air from a cylinder in its face, and back it into a room with a door.

Spraying air to a dog's muzzle indeed is a valid distraction and hierarchy signal. But doesn't work always. For example, my dog would beg you for getting more air into the face, she really likes it somehow.

[Chief1C]

There's always throwing a blanket over it and taking it to a closet. If it's life and death, and I guess it depends on who your supply guy is, there is always CO₂. I wouldn't condone, suggest or attempt anything that would cause any animal, except maybe a venomous reptile, harm or death. I'm the supply guy, I include a third fire extinguisher, b/c sometimes it's better to be properly equipped AND avoid making a mess. Anyhoo.. I'm also a platinum sponsor of the O₂ Fur Life Program, which provides funding to place small animal oxygen and resuscitation masks in the hands of "first responders". What's best for the human, may not be for the animal, but every attempt should be made to get it out of the picture w/o doing it harm. You'll piss it off throwing a blanket over it, but likely won't hurt it. Large wool blankets are best, handle the animal from the back side, avoid the head, or bunch the blanket up around it's head. If it's clear the animal caused harm, is going to harm you, and may be dangerous... Do what you need to do. Just remember, it's probably the owner's fault. Bad dogs aren't born, they're made.

[tniuqs]

As a dog owner and with a wife knowing everything about dogs plus having multiple scary calls with dogs involved and survived all of them (plus keeping the dogs alive) I would say the following: Dogs are pretty predictable and are very bad poker players. Usually they simply want to keep control over the house if the owner can't do it, that's why they're scared like hell with a lot of unknown people coming to the door. Just keep cool and assume control, use a clear body language and a strict & deep voice, if needed escalate to shouting to the dog all the way long (imagine a Marine drill instructor). instantly be the most respectable beeing on scene (if random firefighters salute to you, you're on the right way). Give the dog clear commands with voice and hand signals (point to indicate direction or flat hand to indicate "to the ground"), the dog will understand them when given with clear intention even if never learned. Try to move the dog into an unused room or hook a leash on them (only if the dog already has a collar on). Be sure to have no distraction nearby, noone should do something out of your control (i.e. start to care for the patient in view of the dog, break a window in the back of the dog or else). To control this may be the hardest thing on such a scene, someone seems to always knows it better and does something silly...with you beeing the nearest one to the dog. That would be my greatest worry. Most dogs and especially the random big dogs soon will be glad to have someone in charge on scene. Their social behaviour is based on a very strict hierarchy, and you have to show you're on the upper side. For a human and especially a medic this should be easy, even when you're not belonging to the pack. Dogs know the difference between other dogs and humans very well, the latter are trusted "in charge" even as a stranger. The trick is to not show any uncertainness - act quick!

That's great advice BUT NOT A HOPE IN HELL, that this would have worked, and I even tried my best German too

No way am I going to try being the Dog Whisperer this was a "RED ZONE" assault dog, hitting the door with enough force to knock it out of the frame. Most seriously, I would rather deal with Bears because they will 95.00 % run away. One foot into that home would have resulted in immediate attack, no de-escalation attempts would have been successful, the lead injection was the only possible solution to neutralize.

Diversion: #1-We played "chase the medic" from front door to back door to another, epic fail.

Another fail with humour attempt, we tried to isolate the dog in another room, but knowing that it was way faster, even letting it get outside and we go in would have put the community at risk to a serious safety issue. I did not go into it, but the Dog was known to the RCMP and had already terrified people in the neighbourhood, the "patient" was on the to solve issue RCMP list, for other reasons unknow to us at the time.

But from the "KEEP OUT MEAN DOG sign's" the "grow op deco" with a bent 8 ft chain-link fence surrounding the property, deer skeletal remains and a huge spiked collar it was a bit of a "tell". I did not want to get into this on first post but this was NOT just someone's pet.

sure wish we had 10 smokies on that call as bait.

Some language barrier here Smokies = Fire Fighters, disposable, multi purpose, bunker gear would have reduced the risk assessment to myself and partner (again attempt at humour).. any attempt trying to blanket a 170 lbs rotty would be just simply a suicide attempt.

Bottom Line: If one has a 4 legged weapon on a premises, a rational owner has to factor in if they ever need Emergency Services they may just SOL. Review of the 911 recorded call (their was a fatalities inquiry because autopsy relieved questionable non prescription medications in bloodstream) the owner cautioned responders that he was putting the dog away in a bathroom but he did not make it, he collapsed before he could isolate the "weapon" the caller even stated "do not send" Police.

cheers

Edited August 7, 2011 by tniuqs

[DwayneEMTP]

Actually, I was wondering about putting about 10mg of Fentanyl in a syringe with a nasal atomizer and just make a cloud of it around his head?

Of course we're really off into 'what if' land now...but I wonder if it would work?

Dwayne

[DFIB]

Ruffiens posted in another forum – “Two quick sprays of Nitro dropped the dog in about 5 seconds. I did hear from the cops that the dog did come around, not sure of long term issues but it was truly a matter of time on that call before the dog attacked.”

Has anyone else used Nitro on dogs?

In a medical call the patient is my primary concern after the safety of me and my crew, If the 160 lb vicious monster the patient calls a "pet" is in the way ... feed 'em rice. just not all that interested in the animal. If it is a poodle called Fifi that can easily be controlled it is a different story.

[ShockDoctor]

Okay... not to open this can of worms again. But in that scenario would anyone be glad I was there with my gear?

As for making an entry, I've kicked down a door before (life alert call) without PD help. Pt. was in the bathroom, unresponsive. All the doors were locked, and the windows all had bars on them. I cased the house and found a weak door in the back and made entry with just a few kicks.