MVC's on the interstate

[tskstorm]

I've never lived in a state where I've been reqiured to stop for anything, and I kinda like it that way.

Kudos to that!

[scott33]

I drove by 7 MVCs on the way home from CO Springs today. 3 of them happened right in front of me. The reason I didn't stop? It was pouring and visibility was nil. I was not about to get out of my truck with no jacket, no reflective vest, and no big red house marker blocking off lanes of traffic.

Yup, putting another unmarked vehicle into the mix could have easily have made it number 8.

Taken from another forum, but relevant to this thread...

http://www.wpxi.com/news/23763208/detail.html

[Timmy]

In Australia I’m sure in all states it’s law to stop and render aid, I have heard of people being charged for ‘failing to stop and render aid at the scene of an accident’.

To be truthful I’ve never stumbled across an accident without being in a marked vehicle or being called out… I see your point in regards to the dangers posed by rendering assistance on a busy highway but personally I live in a rural area so heavy traffic really isn’t an issue and the limited oncoming traffic would pull over anyway if no emergency cars were on scene.

I’m sure there’d also be some implication on my nursing registration if I didn’t stop. I’m sure in nursing legal and ethical class they did say something about establishing a relationship with the patient then you form a duty of care, something like that anyway. So technically if I didn’t identify myself as a Nurse I have no duty of care but living in a smaller community where every man and his dog knows of you it’s quiet hard to keep that fact to your self. I guess I could just drive past but chances are we’d just be paged back there…

If the incident occurred out side of my local area, say travelling home from a holiday or likewise it would obviously be circumstantial if I’d render assistance or not. My personal safety comes first so if it’s not safe then obviously I’m not going to put my self in any situation that may compromise my health or wellbeing, if emergency services are already on scene I’m not going to stop either. Now in saying that Australia has a large geographical area so in some places it could be well over an hour before an ambulance arrives, in that situation I would stop and render assistance.

[+medic]

Yup, putting another unmarked vehicle into the mix could have easily have made it number 8.

Taken from another forum, but relevant to this thread...

http://www.wpxi.com/...208/detail.html

The good ol USA thanks to the second amendment is one of the only place in the world where you can assume everyone is armed untill told other wise.

I think that news article is a freek becouse the guy pulled the person out of the truck when he stoped then shot him. I can see you point I just think that guy had bad luck and was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Anyways geting back to the over all topic.

I do find it intresting on how the view of stoping or not is diffrent out side of the USA. It seems in the USA according to this forum stoping is a 50/50 most of the time and when someone posts from over seas they are almost always saying "sure I will stop". It just goes to show you how much of a diffrent mentality people in EMS have around the world.

Ive worked EMS in two countries and its intresting to see how the views can change and mix when presented a certian situation depending on a specific set of circumstances.

Edited June 12, 2010 by +medic

[Chief1C]

To be perfectly honest, if nobody's on scene, and there's no ambulance in sight.. I'd stop. But I'd make sure my vehicle could be placed out of the way, and I'd secure it.

[CBEMT]

I may be misinformed, but I believe that in MN, I am required to stop. Some of the other people I personally know also say that if you are trained in skills that could be useful and can safely do so, you are required to stop or administer aid if the victim gives you permission, and you act within your scope. Driving by would be considered neglect, which is a breach of duty and can lead to liability. I may be wrong, but that was my understanding from the conversations we had in class and some of the conversations I have had with friends that are also in a medical profession. MN is weird about other things, so it would not surprise me.

Before you go out and risk your life on a maybe and hearsay again, I highly recommend checking that out from the source. As in, actually read the law yourself.

So, I give you this for thought: You're driving home from work, and see a vehicle change lanes into another vehicle, causing that second vehicle to hit the gravel on the side of the shoulder, and skid into the ditch. You call 911 and report the accident, but drive on. The following day, you find out from your neighbor that her husband was the one in that accident, and has a broken leg, a couple fractured ribs, and is in critical condition because of the lack of oxygen from respiratory failure, secondary to the chest trauma, during the 20 minutes it took the BLS unit to get there. Knowing you could have assisted his respirations with just a pair of gloves and a face shield, do you think you might have stopped?

So, I give you this for thought: you walk out your front door tomorrow, and a submarine falls on your head.

It's about as likely.

Edited June 12, 2010 by CBEMT

[Just Plain Ruff]

For those of you who say you Have to stop or that you would not feel right in not stopping. I wonder if this is an ego thing or a "I'm so important that I have to stop"

Honestly I think a lot of the mentality for stopping is this.

I'm an EMT or a Medic. I see an accident, I stop I help the person. I feel good about myself. I feel good that I stopped. I looked important to the people I helped.

I can now go back to my friends and family and show how important I was because I stopped. I really didn't need to stop but I did because if I didn't I'd get in trouble.

Is it a pick me up feel good issue that makes me look COOL in front of all my EMT friends or is it truly out of a need to help.

I find that many of the people in EMS I know that stop at all accidents or problems, they tend to brag about how much they helped those poor unfortunate people in the accident.

And for those of you saying that you stop because the law says you have to, please post a link to the law in your state that says you "have" to stop. I would think that the law is not as cut and dried as you think. Relying on hearsay from others saying "you have to stop" is asking for trouble. Unless you have read the law yourselves then you are not completely sure that you have to stop.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Ruffems

[BlissEMT]

Before you go out and risk your life on a maybe and hearsay again, I highly recommend checking that out from the source. As in, actually read the law yourself.

It's state law. If you can safely render assistance at the scene of an emergency, you shall. Neglecting to do so can be considered a misdemeanor offense. I got a printout with my state certifications that just came in the mail, I'll try to find the website and post a link. Or scan it, if I can figure out that new piece of machinery...

So, I give you this for thought: you walk out your front door tomorrow, and a submarine falls on your head.

It's about as likely.

You'd be surprised how many weird things can happen around here. Submarine, no. But neighbors that are injured/ill and you could have rendered assistance, yes.

I can now go back to my friends and family and show how important I was because I stopped. I really didn't need to stop but I did because if I didn't I'd get in trouble.

Personally, I can recount a couple situations when I felt like I was letting down my nieces or nephews because my helping someone in need made me late for a dance recital because another dad was having a seizure in the parking lot or I missed the game-winning soccer goal cause somebody's mom fell on her way to the sidelines and broke her ankle. So no, it's not about bragging rights, but when people who know me say "Oh, Ally's an EMT, I'll go get her", there's really not much I can do about it.

[Timmy]

I’m afraid I’m going to have to call your post a little naive there Ruff. I think your comments in regards to looking “cool” and what not are a broad generalisation but at the same time I must reflect on my previous post and point out that stopping at an accident is very circumstantial and depends on many variables.

I’m sure it’s different in metropolitan areas were Rescue and EMS are on scene within minutes but I’m a country boy and fact is, to have an ambulance on scene within minutes is not likely. On some roads here it could take hours before another vehicle travels by and raises the alarm, there’s minimal cell phone reception in some areas, if EMS are already on a call then it could be over an hour before another unit arrives so in my situation if I come across an accident I’m going to stop and help if no ambulance is already on scene.

I have experience and training with Motorsport EMS and emergency fire and rescue so I’m not going to stand back and let some bystander extricate an injured party with no due regard to scene safety, spinal immobilisation, airway management or bleeding control while it takes EMS 30mins to arrive on scene. As I’m sure your well aware simple, common sense interventions save lives but when you start involving lay bystanders who have been involved (physically or emotionally) in the accident trying to render aid things can turn pear shaped quiet quickly.

So if ambulance is not already on scene and the scene is safe in my situation I’m more than likely going to stop and render assistance. Of course once the appropriate authorises arrive I’m going to step back, give my statement to the police and be on my merry way. I’m not going to brag about the incident or think I’m “cool” because frankly, it’s no one else’s business and if I’ve helped someone that’s all well and good, if I stood there with my hands in my pockets then I haven’t caused any further harm…

We do have a law in Australia relating to this very topic. It’s under the traffic operations act. This act states:

- If any person is injured in an incident were the driver is directly involved or a motor vehicle which is involved elsewhere it the responsibility of the individual to:

(i) remain at or near the scene of the incident and immediately render such assistance as the driver can to the injured person; and

(ii) make reasonable endeavours to obtain such medical and other aid as may reasonably be required for the injured person.

*Maximum Penalty - Failure To Remain At A Road Accident

Maximum penalty-

(a) if death or injury is caused to any person-20 penalty units or imprisonment for 1 year; or

( otherwise-10 penalty units or 6 months imprisonment.

Under section 92(4) of the Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act (Qld), if the accident involves an injured person and the driver shows 'callous disregard' the court must impose a period of imprisonment.

*Possible Defences - Failure To Remain At A Road Accident

Possible defences to this offence include but are not limited to

1. The accused was not involved in the crash.

2. There was in fact no crash.

3. There was in fact no crash involving any injury or death to any person or any damage to any property.

4. The accused did in fact stop and remain at the scene.

5. Duress - example: there was a threat of harm against the accused or another person that the accused reasonably believe would be carried out if he/she did not flee the scene.

6. Necessity - examples:

(a) The driver was injured and required medical attention and thereby had to leave the scene;

( Another person was injured and required medical attention and thereby the driver had to leave the scene.

7. Insanity

8. Identification i.e. the accused was not the driver in the crash

9. Mistake of fact - examples: The accused had an honest and reasonable, but mistaken belief that he/she were not involved in a collision that required him/her to stop (i.e. they believed the damage was less than $2500).

Lawful Excuse - example: The other person/s involved in the crash fled and the accused thereby had no reason to stop and remain at the scene.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I’m afraid I’m going to have to call your post a little naive there Ruff. I think your comments in regards to looking “cool” and what not are a broad generalisation but at the same time I must reflect on my previous post and point out that stopping at an accident is very circumstantial and depends on many variables.

I’m sure it’s different in metropolitan areas were Rescue and EMS are on scene within minutes but I’m a country boy and fact is, to have an ambulance on scene within minutes is not likely. On some roads here it could take hours before another vehicle travels by and raises the alarm, there’s minimal cell phone reception in some areas, if EMS are already on a call then it could be over an hour before another unit arrives so in my situation if I come across an accident I’m going to stop and help if no ambulance is already on scene.

I have experience and training with Motorsport EMS and emergency fire and rescue so I’m not going to stand back and let some bystander extricate an injured party with no due regard to scene safety, spinal immobilisation, airway management or bleeding control while it takes EMS 30mins to arrive on scene. As I’m sure your well aware simple, common sense interventions save lives but when you start involving lay bystanders who have been involved (physically or emotionally) in the accident trying to render aid things can turn pear shaped quiet quickly.

So if ambulance is not already on scene and the scene is safe in my situation I’m more than likely going to stop and render assistance. Of course once the appropriate authorises arrive I’m going to step back, give my statement to the police and be on my merry way. I’m not going to brag about the incident or think I’m “cool” because frankly, it’s no one else’s business and if I’ve helped someone that’s all well and good, if I stood there with my hands in my pockets then I haven’t caused any further harm…

We do have a law in Australia relating to this very topic. It’s under the traffic operations act. This act states:

- If any person is injured in an incident were the driver is directly involved or a motor vehicle which is involved elsewhere it the responsibility of the individual to:

(i) remain at or near the scene of the incident and immediately render such assistance as the driver can to the injured person; and

(ii) make reasonable endeavours to obtain such medical and other aid as may reasonably be required for the injured person.

*Maximum Penalty - Failure To Remain At A Road Accident

Maximum penalty-

(a) if death or injury is caused to any person-20 penalty units or imprisonment for 1 year; or

( otherwise-10 penalty units or 6 months imprisonment.

Under section 92(4) of the Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act (Qld), if the accident involves an injured person and the driver shows 'callous disregard' the court must impose a period of imprisonment.

*Possible Defences - Failure To Remain At A Road Accident

Possible defences to this offence include but are not limited to

1. The accused was not involved in the crash.

2. There was in fact no crash.

3. There was in fact no crash involving any injury or death to any person or any damage to any property.

4. The accused did in fact stop and remain at the scene.

5. Duress - example: there was a threat of harm against the accused or another person that the accused reasonably believe would be carried out if he/she did not flee the scene.

6. Necessity - examples:

(a) The driver was injured and required medical attention and thereby had to leave the scene;

( Another person was injured and required medical attention and thereby the driver had to leave the scene.

7. Insanity

8. Identification i.e. the accused was not the driver in the crash

9. Mistake of fact - examples: The accused had an honest and reasonable, but mistaken belief that he/she were not involved in a collision that required him/her to stop (i.e. they believed the damage was less than $2500).

Lawful Excuse - example: The other person/s involved in the crash fled and the accused thereby had no reason to stop and remain at the scene.

Show me where my post is a little naive

I have been in EMS for over 19 years off and on. I know many new emt's, emt students, paramedic students and new paramedics who consider it a badge of courage on how often they stop. They use the tired excuses that they were there so they stopped or if "I hadn't stopped the patient woudl have died" or whatever excuse they use.

I fell into the above when I was a new medic and new emt.

Like many new emt's and medics the belief that since I had the new found skills I could help out everywhere and at every accident. Hell I even know of a few EMT's and medics who listen to the scanner and they respond to the scene if it's close to their house.

I don't think that the logic I used about the new gung ho ness as well as that new adrenaline rush is too far fetched. Maybe those in Australia have less of a adrenaline rush but trust me, it happens here in the US all the time.

I do agree that stopping is a case by case basis. I have said in the past on this thread that yes I would not stop, but I'll temper that. If I witness a accident, I'll slow down and make sure that I don't see anyone really hurt badly. I will then decide based on my assessment of the scene if I will stop or not.

Am I going to stop at a accident where it's in the middle of a very heavily trafficked Interstate? NOPE too dangerous

Will I stop at an accident where it's two lanes one each way, and the road is blocked and I can pull off far enough to keep my vehicle safe then maybe.

Will I ever stop when my son or daughter is in my car and I'm the only other one in the car, NOT A CHANCE. My son or daughter safety is compromised when I leave my car.

The chances of my stopping will increase only if I'm in the car alone and I know the area.

I do not believe that my thought process of the "I stopped so I'm important" is too far fetched. I truly believe that part of the stopping mentality of people is that they think it actually makes them look important.

Disagree with me, fine thats your perogative but I'll be that many on this forum will remember back to when they were brand new, 10 feet tall and bullet proof and stopping at an accident scene made them feel important.

I am sure not many on this forum will admit to that but it's more prevalent than you think it is.

Not disagreeing with you Timmy, just giving a little different perspective.