Obama's Healthcare Reform

[funkytomtom]

your right he did not say that, but in my opinion that is what it will come to with the gov't paying the bill for the most part, and like I said before yes I am not cert'd so I don't know everything per se in the medical field but if I were cert'd as an EMT-B my first responsibility it to the pt. and no one else unless they are in danger and they are at the scene of any given call I may be on. But I am not cert'd so...but if I see something happen I will step up and care for that pt. till better help arrives.

I hate to threadjack, but while I appreciate your enthusiasm and apparent patient advocacy mentality, I fail to see where you make this connection. Whether or not it is a good bill (of which I'm not sure), I have an impossible time believing that ANYONE is ever going to ask you to NOT care for someone who needs help. This comment sets you up as a self-righteous crusader without a crusade.

The economic points and finer details of patient care are all up for debate, and with good cause, but lets not hyperbolize the discussion with talk of death panels, and these "mystery patients" we will no longer be able to treat. Good debate aims to tease out the truth, while debate just to win becomes eristic.

[Happiness]

I think that this is where people get confused about American healthcare. This child would not be denied life saving surgery. Would his parents be responsible afterwards for the amount of money that wasn't covered by their insurance? They would, as they should be. This child would have it's surgery and the parents would pay for it for a long time, as is their responsibility for creating a child.

Dylan costs me a significant amount of money secondary to his autism as well as because Barbara and I have chosen for her to stay home and care for him, as well as me of course, which keeps her from earning an extra income. We have very few shiny things, have never owned a home or a new car, we live very simply because of the decisions we've made as well as the blessing of having Dylan in our lives. We decided to have a child, our child is autistic, why should my neighbors be responsible for those costs? If Dylan needs life altering healthcare, or any type of necessary care whatsoever, he will receive it and we will add the expense to the financial burden we carry now, and I won't complain for a moment. It will take a while to pay, but I won't go to jail, they won't kidnap my boy, life will go on. Will it go on without the discomfort that sometimes comes with the freedom of being responsible for our own decisions? Of course not, and it shouldn't.

You really only have to look as far as Waco Texas to see why it's difficult for many of us to give over any more power to our government than absolutely necessary. Some of that, at least for people like me is just bullshit stubbornness, but much of it is also a true desire to remain in charge of our own destiny. As a society we've often done what we felt was kind, we gave classes of people basic human needs, food, housing, and healthcare when they couldn't care for themselves and we now have huge American populations that are no longer capable of caring for themselves. We've got kids in our inner cities, and elsewhere of course, that come from 5 generations of adults that have never had to earn an income. Learning to have the government care for us, many of us believe, is to forget to know how to care for ourselves. As well, anything that the government gives, it can also take away or hold hostage to force it's other desires.

I would personally rather go hungry than trade you your sandwich for a stick that you may later choose to beat me with. Would I rather keep my stick if it meant that Dylan had to starve instead. No, then I'd be forced by my emotions to take my beating. But that is not a decision that I'm forced to make here. If it was as you fear, that we have a country full of sick and dying poor children then I can't imagine the argument that I'd make to you on this subject, but that just simply isn't the case outside of fictional books and popular television.

I am grateful for your thoughts and opinions. As always you've shown not only to have an intelligent opinion but a refreshing curiosity to explore the subject instead of simply express a previously held opinion...

You're ok for a non American... :-)

Thanks for your thoughts girl. As always they give me pause and make me dig...

Dwayne

As I have watched these posts I have to admit Dwayne you again make me understand the american mind a little more. You are one in a Million and by that I mean you have taken responsibilty for your actions. Like you said you chose to have a child and if he needs anything you will do anything to make that happen. The unfortuant thing is that again you are one in a million the rest dont think that way. Maybe healthcare reform is not the way to go but come on the cost of your hospital stays is rediculas (didnt spell that right) 22 years ago a friend (who is also responsible and paid the bill) had her child in the states and as we were looking through the bill I couldnt believe she had to pay $5.00 for an extra strength tylonol. So maybe if the costs were forced to go down people would have a better ability to pay their bills. I have always had health care and in reality I know no different but Im sure glad that when I go to have surgery Im not going home with a 100k bill.

Everyone is going to have a different opinion about this but I think that most agree that something needs to change in the system but if this isnt the start then what is.

ps Dwayne the 1 in a mill is a complement and I dont believe that you should be fined for something you dont want

Edited March 25, 2010 by Happiness

[2wheelinemt]

i too am a person with a pre existing health problem but i feel that no government has a right to force any employment to health care or anything for that matter...this is so not what the fore fathers had in mind...they are rolling over in their graves....and if the government has only our best interest in mind why did Biden lean over to Obama and say this is a f.... big deal (forgot his mike was open)

[tcripp]

...as we were looking through the bill I couldn't believe she had to pay $5.00 for an extra strength Tylenol. So maybe if the costs were forced to go down...

But, the reason that pill was $5.00 was because you not only paid for that pill, but you paid for the pills/medical care that others could not pay for. People who can't afford the care aren't necessarily denied care (especially life saving efforts). The costs are just passed on to the rest of those who can afford it.

Edited March 25, 2010 by tcripp

[Happiness]

But, the reason that pill was $5.00 was because you not only paid for that pill, but you paid for the pills/medical care that others could not pay for. People who can't afford the care aren't necessarily denied care (especially life saving efforts). The costs are just passed on to the rest of those who can afford it.

Thanks I know the reason why, its like I pay for all of those that steal at the grocery store. My point was that in the US they have overcharged for everything (just look at pharmicuticals), they become compliant and continue to pay. If you as a nation decided to not pay those prices then maybe the corps. would have to drop the fee's and make it more affordable to more people. I also know easier said than done, and I also know that this whole issue is nothing more than a pandoras box.

Hopsitals are a business and are there to make money, they make the money to have the best DR's and nurses, have the best equipment in the hopes that they will get more pts that can pay, but alas there are always those who cant pay for what ever reason and down goes the surpluses and up go the fee's.

[Lone Star]

But, the reason that pill was $5.00 was because you not only paid for that pill, but you paid for the pills/medical care that others could not pay for. People who can't afford the care aren't necessarily denied care (especially life saving efforts). The costs are just passed on to the rest of those who can afford it.

If I'm reading this correctly, Patient A goes to the hospital and runs up a $10,000.00 tab, but has no insurance; so XYZ Hhospital passes this tab onto the next 10 patients (Patients B-K). Those patients each end up paying 10% of Patient A's bill.

Now Patients B-K have insurance. Since it's assumed that Patient A (with no insurance) isn't going to be able to pay the bill, the next 10 patients get 10% of that bill to pay.

Lo and behold! Patient A comes into a windfall, and comes back to pay the $10,000.00 bill. In a perfect society, Patients B-K are entitled to a refund of $1,000.00 (10% of Patient A's bill).

Now, we know this isn't going to happen, so in theory; Patient A's bill has just been paid twice, so XYZ Hospital just made $10,000.00 in extra profits.

Joe's Insurance Company (who insures Patients B-K, passes the extra cost on to their customer base of 1000 other clients by raising everybody's insurance premiums by $25.00 per month.

By doing so, Joe's Insurance Company just increased it's yearly profit by $290,000.00

It seems that with all this 'double dipping' going on while Peter is robbed to pay Paul, the only places that are getting rich are the hospitals and the insurance companies. THIS is where 'reform' needs to start!

Granted, the numbers are extreme, but it shows a trend without having to go into numbers that would just boggle the mind, and further complicate things. I further realize that this doesn't happen in every case, but how many times does it happen?

Now, knowing that hospital bills can be 'negotiated', do you REALLY think that the insurance company is paying 'full price'?

Since the doctors know that the price can actually be negotiated (usually at a 'loss' of 30%), they inflate their prices by the same amount, so that when it's all negotiated down, they didn't lose anything.

Even where doctors DON'T follow this practice, the insurance companies certainly aren't passing the savings back to the customer base! Again, THIS is where 'reform' needs to happen!

[Just Plain Ruff]

lest anyone think I am totally against this concept of healthcare reform I AM NOT. I am just against this bill.

Let me say some more about why this bill is bad or is not right

1. There is no tort reform in it. One major reason that doctors are leaving states that have such high malpractice insurance rates is because of the costs and judgements that are so high that the physicians cannot pay for the coverage. (no malpractice insurance reform eh???)

2. To purchase health insurance for my company my rates were quoted as 1400 per month. That is slightly more than I bring in a month after taxes with my company. Sometimes I make a LOT more a month and sometimes I make less. Some would say it evens out but it's expensive. Maybe this bill will lower that cost but to include everyone with pre-existing conditions for all 35 million people I think not.

3. Pre-existing condition coverage for kids - I'm all for that. Most of the conditions that kids have that cannot be covered is due to no fault of their own. They should be covered.

4. Rationing - already going on it's called the pre-existing condition clause and the medical necessity clause. If insurance for all get's covered, then bariatric surgery, cosmetic surgery, ABORTION and many other elective surgeries that do not need to be done will be done. I'm good with rationing some elective surgeries and definatel NO ABORTIONS. But under the bill if a insurance company chooses to allow Abortions then that plan will pay for this. I will have no part in a plan that pays for abortion. I would rather pay the fine than get coverage under that plan.

5. The cost - In order to cover the 32 or so million people it is a absolute certainty that everyone's insurance rates will go UP UP UP. Our taxes will be going up because even with the premiums which will go up the budget numbers that are touted are all based on conjecture and conjecture only. They estimated High I think so when those cost start to jump up then the costs to everyone will go up.

6. I think that if you want to see a unsuccessful universal health care plan just look at Massachussetts. They estimated one number and the final numbers I have heard and read were at least double the original cost or maybe even triple.

I had a phone call so I lost my train of thought so I'll leave it here for now.

[brentoli]

If Dylan needs life altering healthcare, or any type of necessary care whatsoever, he will receive it and we will add the expense to the financial burden we carry now, and I won't complain for a moment. It will take a while to pay, but I won't go to jail, they won't kidnap my boy, life will go on. Will it go on without the discomfort that sometimes comes with the freedom of being responsible for our own decisions? Of course not, and it shouldn't.

Its also safe to say Dwayne, that there are Hospital Based "charity programs" which will forgive portions of you bill when you show hardship. Also some states (Indiana is one but they are ending the program due to the new "reforms") offer programs to help get insurance for children and state ran COBRA plans for high risk. This is part of the reason I understand many states are suing under the 10th Amendment.(Wiki on 10th Amendment for the non-Americans)

We are not hanging our population out on the cross when they get injured or ill. We are just trying promote individual responsibility.

I really like the line I bolded from Dewayne. America stands on the basis of freedom. It's not true freedom when its only allowed when convenient.

Freedom: the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy; self-determination.

I would love to have the mind trust of Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, and the rest here today, to look at the nation, and see what their true reaction is.

Edited March 25, 2010 by brentoli

[Dustdevil]

The elected yahoos in Washington seem to think that by starting all these 'giveaway programs', that the economy will magically pick back up.

I dunno, man... I think you give them too much credit for trying to do the right thing. I believe they know darn good and well that they're only making things worse. But they also know that, the worse they make it, the more we depend on them. Consequently, everything they do is just to buy votes, not to actually fix anything.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Its also safe to say Dwayne, that there are Hospital Based "charity programs" which will forgive portions of you bill when you show hardship. Also some states (Indiana is one but they are ending the program due to the new "reforms") offer programs to help get insurance for children and state ran COBRA plans for high risk. This is part of the reason I understand many states are suing under the 10th Amendment.(Wiki on 10th Amendment for the non-Americans)

We are not hanging our population out on the cross when they get injured or ill. We are just trying promote individual responsibility.

I really like the line I bolded from Dewayne. America stands on the basis of freedom. It's not true freedom when its only allowed when convenient.

Freedom: the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy; self-determination.

I would love to have the mind trust of Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, and the rest here today, to look at the nation, and see what their true reaction is.

Brent, first off hows the baby?

Second, if we put Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams and the others in a room they would drink the Jones flavored Kool Aid and go back to heaven.

If they didn't drink the kool aid, then I could see them just locking the door and waiting till this roller coaster ride was over. They'd be dead by then too.

I think the founding fathers are rolling over, vomiting and hoping that they don't get reincarnated.