Paramedic/RN

[Dustdevil]

JakeEMTP has the attitude of a lot of ground medics that have never been on a flight.

Far be it for me to speak for JakeEMTP, but I believe I understand where he is coming from (and yes, I have worked flight). I believe it is just the opposite of what [i think] you are suggesting. Most ground medics who have never been on a flight feel the opposite of JakeEMTP. It's a bizarre kind of "man crush" kind of thing that they have with the airplane and the flight suit, with no real understanding of what the job itself is all about. It's a big reason why HEMS is so overused. Whackers get a woody when they hear the rotor blades, as if they enjoy some glory by proxy simply for having called them. Take away the sexy factor, and there is little left that is particularly appealing. Not that there is anything wrong with working flight. But the hero-worship factor from the ground pounders is silly and unwarranted.

[spenac]

Far be it for me to speak for JakeEMTP, but I believe I understand where he is coming from (and yes, I have worked flight). I believe it is just the opposite of what [i think] you are suggesting. Most ground medics who have never been on a flight feel the opposite of JakeEMTP. It's a bizarre kind of "man crush" kind of thing that they have with the airplane and the flight suit, with no real understanding of what the job itself is all about. It's a big reason why HEMS is so overused. Whackers get a woody when they hear the rotor blades, as if they enjoy some glory by proxy simply for having called them. Take away the sexy factor, and there is little left that is particularly appealing. Not that there is anything wrong with working flight. But the hero-worship factor from the ground pounders is silly and unwarranted.

In my current position flight often refuses patients because they require more care than they can give. Leaving little ol me to transport the truly sick and injured. I just don't see why everyone thinks flight is so much better than ground. Of course I come from the world where you practice medicine rather than practice diesel boluses.

[Jwade]

Far be it for me to speak for JakeEMTP, but I believe I understand where he is coming from (and yes, I have worked flight). I believe it is just the opposite of what [i think] you are suggesting. Most ground medics who have never been on a flight feel the opposite of JakeEMTP. It's a bizarre kind of "man crush" kind of thing that they have with the airplane and the flight suit, with no real understanding of what the job itself is all about. It's a big reason why HEMS is so overused. Whackers get a woody when they hear the rotor blades, as if they enjoy some glory by proxy simply for having called them. Take away the sexy factor, and there is little left that is particularly appealing. Not that there is anything wrong with working flight. But the hero-worship factor from the ground pounders is silly and unwarranted.

Dust,

Very well stated! HEMS is overrated, and people take themselves way too seriously. You would think with some of the EGO's involved, they were curing cancer or something!

JW

You are looking at "management" from the only perspective you have been taught with is probably very different than the health care leadership model BSN and BSRTs get. Our pertain to a health care setting and with direct patient care that covers leading and organizing many different services for the good of the patient. If the nurse wants to get more into health care administration and less with patient care they can go the MHA or MBA route. The management in these "lower" degrees is still geared toward patient care. BSNs are needed because the RN has traditionally been the higher educated clinician who was responsible for the whole patient. However, if you attend a multidisciplinary meeting, most allied health providers will have a Masters and are quickly gaining more respect from the MD and Hospital Administrators since legislators and insurers are impressed with their evidenced based research for patient care and have shown that professions with higher education can cut costs in the long run.

This must be the "basic" management course that you are referring to.

NUR 4828 CON-NURS 3(3,0)

Nursing Leadership, Management and Role Transition:

PR: Admission to the BSN program, successful completion

of the first four semesters in the nursing curriculum, and

concurrent enrollment in NUR 4945L Directed Practice;

NUR 4637; NUR 4637L; NUR 4257. Professional development

and role transition of baccalaureate graduates entering

professional nursing practice focusing on principles of

leadership and management applied to health care settings.

Except for a couple of community and public health classes, the RN to BSN candidate can choose from several patient care based electives to enhance his/her clinical knowledge. However, I would not dismiss the importance of community and public health nursing. That is a huge issue right now and it has the potential to shape the way health care is delivered in the out of hospital setting. NPs and PAs as well as RTs are already very involved in the legislative processes for out of hospital settings that will directly influence their professions.

If a nurse wants to get more education for management as it pertains to running a nursing unit, there is an MSN with a management track. If the nurse wants to run a health care company or participate in corporate nonclinical level management, then he/she would get the undergrad requirements to enter an MBA program or anothe graduate business degree. Again, management in the direct patient care setting and dealing with patient as well as "leadership" issues is a different specialty and you should already know this since there are MBAs with varying tracks for different specialties as well as MSA (accounting), MST (taxation) MSBM (sport business management), MS (human resources) or whatever your specialty.

Nursing is a very expansive profession and the BSN is just one step that really is an entry level for patient care and one the gives the RN more credibility with focus to the broader picture of things to come in the clinical setting and the future. The ADN provides only the core courses with their prerequisites much like the RTs are now seeing how outdated their A.S. degree is for achieving their goals and providing a better educated clinician at beside. We're still learning what OT, PT, SLP, Athletic Trainers, Radiation Therapists and a few others have already mastered.

Vent,

In the MHA classes we look at a variety of different models that are being taught to various other allied health providers, including BSN, NP, PA, CRNA ( including the new DNP, DNAP), MD, DO, PT, PharmD. We have done many statistical analyses to see which models have proven effective based on a variety of variables. However, this would clearly be beyond the scope of this conversation. Do you honestly think that Hospital CEO's and Administrators have NO clue as to what other professions require for education?

I agree Nursing is a very expansive profession, I do believe I stated that in a previous post somewhere. I think we are just looking at it from two different spectrums clinical versus business.

Respectfully,

JW

[chbare]

One of the major factors in the flight mess is the sending facility. Hospitals are just as bad if not worse in the overuse of fligh, specifically HEMS. In addition, the sexy factor is quickly ending in many areas where providers can make more money and have better hours. This especially applies to experienced nurses who should be taking these flight positions. We now have an army of inexperienced and ill prepared providers working for peanuts. This is further compounded by aggressive "you call we haul" PR programs, EMS overuse of HEMS, and sending facilities calling flight resources to get patients out along with service/helicopter shopping.

Regarding nursing; nursing education is in a state of chaos. Lack of qualified instructors and program resources is hitting home hard. The nursing programs in my area now have only one clinical day a week, essentially cutting the clinical requirements in half. About 1/3 of the students in my RT class are dropouts from both the AD and BS nursing programs. Lack of structure, clinical experience, and poor instruction have been quoted. Anecdotal, yes; however, most of these people are good students who have done well in the RT program. In addition, potential nursing students are looking at other allied health positions instead of nursing.

The profession of nursing seems to be doing little to ensure well qualified nurses are going going into patient care positions. However, we are doing very good at pushing indi practice DNP agenda as the cure for the primary care crisis and generally pissing off the medical community. However, it seems we are forgetting about the backbone of nursing (bedside care).

IMHO

Take care,

chbare.

[VentMedic]

Vent,

In the MHA classes we look at a variety of different models that are being taught to various other allied health providers, including BSN, NP, PA, CRNA ( including the new DNP, DNAP), MD, DO, PT, PharmD. We have done many statistical analyses to see which models have proven effective based on a variety of variables. However, this would clearly be beyond the scope of this conversation. Do you honestly think that Hospital CEO's and Administrators have NO clue as to what other professions require for education?

John,

You just quoted me. How can you state I said the hospital CEO's and Administrators have no clue?

However, if you attend a multidisciplinary meeting, most allied health providers will have a Masters and are quickly gaining more respect from the MD and Hospital Administrators since legislators and insurers are impressed with their evidenced based research for patient care and have shown that professions with higher education can cut costs in the long run.

I agree Nursing is a very expansive profession, I do believe I stated that in a previous post somewhere. I think we are just looking at it from two different spectrums clinical versus business.

Respectfully,

JW

Those of us who have been around awhile know that the MBA was as common in the 80s and early 90s as the BA was in the 70s. Some thought of the MBA as a program for the undecided and others realized the BA was not enough education to get a decent job and definitely not a career. A nurse can do okay with just an ADN but one who wants to make a good career in nursing with many options should be adequately prepared for the future.

Regarding nursing; nursing education is in a state of chaos. Lack of qualified instructors and program resources is hitting home hard. The nursing programs in my area now have only one clinical day a week, essentially cutting the clinical requirements in half. About 1/3 of the students in my RT class are dropouts from both the AD and BS nursing programs. Lack of structure, clinical experience, and poor instruction have been quoted. Anecdotal, yes; however, most of these people are good students who have done well in the RT program. In addition, potential nursing students are looking at other allied health positions instead of nursing.

I also remember the nursing program recruiters standing outside of the RT classroom door on test days to snatch up whoever came out in tears. Since the RT prerequisites were actually higher than the nursing programs at the time, the RT students were an easy transfer. However, it was very rare that the RT program took someone who failed the RN program.

Edited January 9, 2010 by VentMedic

[chbare]

Oh no, these are not people who were failing nursing school, they actually dropped out of nursing school to go into the RT program because of what I stated above.

Take care,

chbare.

[VentMedic]

Oh no, these are not people who were failing nursing school, they actually dropped out of nursing school to go into the RT program because of what I stated above.

Take care,

chbare.

No, some flunked out of nursing and tried to enter RT school. They finally ended up as Paramedics with the FD in the 90s when the mills took over.

[Dustdevil]

I found RT school (AAS level RRT) at least twice as difficult and challenging as nursing school, no doubt about it.

Interestingly though, I saw more people drop out of my nursing class than my RT class. Maybe because of the better prerequisite preparation the RT students had. Just as likely, because my RT instructors were a lot better than my nursing instructors.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Dustdevil

[Jwade]

John,

You just quoted me. How can you state I said the hospital CEO's and Administrators have no clue?

Those of us who have been around awhile know that the MBA was as common in the 80s and early 90s as the BA was in the 70s. Some thought of the MBA as a program for the undecided and others realized the BA was not enough education to get a decent job and definitely not a career. A nurse can do okay with just an ADN but one who wants to make a good career in nursing with many options should be adequately prepared for the future.

I also remember the nursing program recruiters standing outside of the RT classroom door on test days to snatch up whoever came out in tears. Since the RT prerequisites were actually higher than the nursing programs at the time, the RT students were an easy transfer. However, it was very rare that the RT program took someone who failed the RN program.

Vent,

My apologies, I must have misread your statement earlier. I stand corrected on the Hospital Admin and education issue! :-)

From what I have read about MBA programs from the early 80's compared to programs currently, the focus seems to have changed dramatically, and just like nursing, has expanded to encompass areas as you have pointed out in the previous responses.

Dust,

I have also heard some friends of mine express the same thing about RT school being much more difficult than nursing school. One of my close friends who was a 2 year degree medic first, said nursing school was just beyond boring and mundane. He really enjoyed RT school after 2 years as an RN, and was happy he made the change.

CHbare,

Here in Arizona, there are very long wait lists for nursing school due to the lack of qualified Nursing instructors.

Respectfully,

JW

[VentMedic]

CHbare,

Here in Arizona, there are very long wait lists for nursing school due to the lack of qualified Nursing instructors.

Respectfully,

JW

I applaud nursing for having high educational standards for the educators. I personally feel that EMS is lagging because it has not set the bar higher for its instructors to become educators. Once education becomes more visible to the students, an example is set rather than "look at the cool things Bubba has done and he only had 4 months of trainin'". For RT, I am really impressed at the support for education but then after having all the other health professions looking down their noses at the RTs in the 80s when the tech mills tried to ruin the profession, it is nice to see this profession emerge stronger than the weakest link. Unfortunately, EMS is still catering to the weakest links.

RT combines the best of two worlds; technology and health care. For those who love gadgets and taking the human body to extremes with technology, it is a fascinating career. However, Physical Therapy ranks up there in gadgets and a fascinating profession with many different opportunities as well as being one of the better paid with sign-on bonuses that make even the RNs drool.

Edited January 10, 2010 by VentMedic