violation or not

[WolfmanHarris]

Do we really need to know whether something is technically illegal to know it's not a great idea to pull out a camera onscene for personal use AND then post those photos anywhere?

Maybe this photo is real, maybe it's not. Maybe it's covered under HIPPA, maybe it's from Ontario and covered under PHIPPA or maybe it's from somewhere else all together. Let's look past the legal and consider the moral and the practical. Whether it's real or not, a violation or not, how does this photo in this situation represent EMS as a profession. I would say poorly and unfortunately in line with what the public in some areas has come to expect. Should this site as a forum for professional discourse host this image without knowing for sure and being able to state that it is a moulage photo? That's up to Admin, it's his/her site. I would, however, urge discretion and suggest that no harm is done by it's removal and nothing is gained by it's continued stay.

Edit: A quick check of the source page lists it under "Photos Taken on Calls."

Edited December 19, 2009 by docharris

[buckeyedoc]

1. This person is dead and therefore not a patient; not sure if it would have anything to do with hippa.

2. Once the picture is on the internet, if there is no accompanying copyright tags, rights to the picture are lost.

1. You are wrong. Even the dead have HIPAA rights.

2. Nothing could be further from the truth. Copyright remains the intellectual property of the person taking the photograph regardless of what happens to it. Whoever posted the image online w/out rights permission from the creator, stole the image.

[fireflymedic]

Herbie -

I take the pics to justify the ground providers saying this was a valid reason to fly, especially when doc is going umm why are they? They are fine. It comes back to medic judgement, and also the distance thing to definitive care as well as single medic counties - that's the determining factor for alot of things. I'm not arguing right or wrong, but if the car is trashed I can justify a higher potential for injury than if there's just a tiny bit. I'm not going against decisions here - I use it to support it the majority of times.

[Chief1C]

Looks like a severe head bleed and brain matter, IMO.

[JPINFV]

I am unsure of specifics, but it is my understanding that a lawsuit is in progress regarding the mother of a lady killed in a DWI accident (the lady in question was not the driver), where some unfeeling person keeps sending pictures of the deceased lady, still in the wrecked car, to the mother. The LEOs have been trying to find the source of the original picture, probably someone's cell phone camera, but every time they shut down a posted copy of the accident on the internet, another page goes up, and a link sent to the mother.

Are you talking about the Orange County/California Highway Patrol incident from a few years ago?

[fireflymedic]

Are you talking about the Orange County/California Highway Patrol incident from a few years ago?

Regardless of who posted it - that's an incredibly ignorant person to say the least. But one can't help but wonder with the availability of cell phones with cameras and people with personal cameras it very well could have been a bystander/gawker as I know has been the case with a few unsightly pictures that have surfaced 'round this way. Just be smart and sensitive people - how would you feel if it were your own?

[DwayneEMTP]

I've only taken pics on scene, not counting Afg, a couple of times. Both were because I believed I had a significant MOI yet the pt presented clinically sound. I need the pic to convince the ER not to blow them off and send them home too soon. As I was seen taking them, I also asked one of the nurses to witness me deleting them off of my phone, just in case some other asshole posted something that might later be credited to me.

We are expected to clear via NEXIS here.

I can't really imagine a reason to post such a picture to tell the truth. Are you such a loser that you need to try and prove to others that you've actually seen a dead body? It that truly the defining moment of your life? What is the point to posting such things?

As said before by my betters, legal or not, it's unkind, unprofessional, and possibly career ending...just say no to ridiculous tokens of false grandiosity.

Dwayne

[letmesleep]

Do we really need to know whether something is technically illegal to know it's not a great idea to pull out a camera onscene for personal use AND then post those photos anywhere?

Maybe this photo is real, maybe it's not. Maybe it's covered under HIPPA, maybe it's from Ontario and covered under PHIPPA or maybe it's from somewhere else all together. Let's look past the legal and consider the moral and the practical. Whether it's real or not, a violation or not, how does this photo in this situation represent EMS as a profession. I would say poorly and unfortunately in line with what the public in some areas has come to expect. Should this site as a forum for professional discourse host this image without knowing for sure and being able to state that it is a moulage photo? That's up to Admin, it's his/her site. I would, however, urge discretion and suggest that no harm is done by it's removal and nothing is gained by it's continued stay.

Edit: A quick check of the source page lists it under "Photos Taken on Calls."

Interesting enough doc......the photo remains!

Reading some of the replies on this thread makes me wonder when you have time to "snap a picture" in a critical situation? I'm not calling anyone out on this because I understand that there may be or just is a need to "prove" to the ER staff how bad things were on a scene. I just don't understand when the time is taken in those cases to stop pt care to take that photo. Even with cell phones, you have to maneuver through your menu to get to the camera. Like I said I understand the argument about using the photo for documentation, but this leads me to ask those who are thrill seeking to prove their worth online......Is it worth it to your pt that you stop working on them, so your ego can be stroked?

[fireflymedic]

It has been proven time and time again - it is impossible to get rid of every source of something on the internet. Once it is posted up, it is there for good. Think long and hard before you post something - if you think there is even a chance that it may be misinterpreted, don't post it. Error on the side of caution. Remember, it's getting quite popular for potential employers to search your myspace, you tube, facebook, etc - and if they don't like what they see, you are apt to be passed over. It has happened before and is more often than you think, especially in competitive jobs. Just think twice.

[Richard B the EMT]

I cannot control others onscene who might have cameras, most of the time.

However, some years ago, prior to HIPAA being enacted, my crew and I responded to a nasty multiple alarm fire in Far Rockaway. One patient we handled, eventually removing to the Burn Center at New York-Cornell Medical Center in Manhattan, had burns to the forearms under her heavy bracelets. The NYPD entered my ambulance to use a K-12 power saw to remove the bracelets from her. Doing so created a lot of sparks, which lit up the immediate area as seen through the open doors to the ambulance. We couldn't close the doors, as the K-12 is powered by a small gas engine.

A freelance news photographer was almost standing in the ambulance door, doing his job of photographing this. I tapped him on the shoulder to get his attention, and commented to him: " I am trying to protect the privacy of my patient, without preventing you from doing your job. Perhaps we could reach common grounds by having you not photograph from so close?"

He agreed, and backed up about 30 feet, where the patient's photograph would not have given details as to who the patient was.