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your opinion on a manditory 2 year degree for paramedic


2 year degree, good or bad?  

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Pretty much everyone here has agreed with the creation of strong educational standards. But, as I have mentioned before, why don't we present these 'improved standards' on the forum for folks to look over and comment on rather than simply making the blanket statement 'We need increased educational standards!' and not providing a baseline to work from. Maybe some folk's programs already cover all you think needs to be covered and actually can do it in less than two full years.

Let's look over the pros and cons first of what topics and standards should be considered for the program first, rather then assume that anyone who isn't on your 'Two Years or Else' bandwagon has less than the patient's utmost welfare at heart.

& FWIW: I, for one, prefer to be talked with and to, not talked down to. And my 'manner of sense' is just fine, thank you kindly for asking.

I'm not saying that you and others don't have patients' best interest at heart- most do. However, I am looking at the best interests of the patients and our own best interests as a career field. We need to be more than a voc-tech course or a community college learner's permit career. Paramedics should be educated to the minimum (eventually) of a bachelor's degree (an associate's degree is a start for now).

I'm all for increasing requirements- more stringent testing, stiffer entrance requirements, higher continuing education requirements, increased numbers of people washed out of programs because they aren't performing satisfactorily, etc. But these need to be combined with increases in education, otherwise all of our efforts will go unrecognized.

The only way to raise pay is to increase the demand- until people are willing to refuse to work for peanuts, don't expect filet mignon anytime soon. A unified front is required and that is something that we have yet to present on any large scale.

Since you asked for some idea of what I mean when I say increased educational requirements:

GENERAL EDUCATIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS- ALL TO BE COMPLETED PRIOR TO ENROLLMENT IN PRECLINICAL OR CLINCAL COURSES

-Biology (w/ labs) 8 sem hrs (general biology and microbiology)

-General chemistry (w/ lab) 8 sem hrs

-Organic chemistry (w/ lab) 8 sem hrs

-Biochemistry (lab optional) 3-4 sem hrs

-Human A+P (w/ lab) 8 sem hrs

-Pathophysiology 2-3 sem hrs

-English composition 3 sem hrs

-Public speaking 3 sem hrs

-General psychology 3 sem hrs

-Physics (w/ labs) 8 sem hrs

I'll post my ideas on preclinical and clinical education requirements later. I have errands to run at the moment.

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I'm not saying that you and others don't have patients' best interest at heart- most do. However, I am looking at the best interests of the patients and our own best interests as a career field. We need to be more than a voc-tech course or a community college learner's permit career. Paramedics should be educated to the minimum (eventually) of a bachelor's degree (an associate's degree is a start for now).

I'm all for increasing requirements- more stringent testing, stiffer entrance requirements, higher continuing education requirements, increased numbers of people washed out of programs because they aren't performing satisfactorily, etc. But these need to be combined with increases in education, otherwise all of our efforts will go unrecognized.

The only way to raise pay is to increase the demand- until people are willing to refuse to work for peanuts, don't expect filet mignon anytime soon. A unified front is required and that is something that we have yet to present on any large scale.

Since you asked for some idea of what I mean when I say increased educational requirements:

GENERAL EDUCATIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS- ALL TO BE COMPLETED PRIOR TO ENROLLMENT IN PRECLINICAL OR CLINCAL COURSES

-Biology (w/ labs) 8 sem hrs (general biology and microbiology)

-General chemistry (w/ lab) 8 sem hrs

-Organic chemistry (w/ lab) 8 sem hrs

-Biochemistry (lab optional) 3-4 sem hrs

-Human A+P (w/ lab) 8 sem hrs

-Pathophysiology 2-3 sem hrs

-English composition 3 sem hrs

-Public speaking 3 sem hrs

-General psychology 3 sem hrs

-Physics (w/ labs) 8 sem hrs

I'll post my ideas on preclinical and clinical education requirements later. I have errands to run at the moment.

Ditch,

I have been following this thread carefully for the past few weeks, there are several things that need to be addressed.

1. Yes we know you want to weed and wash out people from these programs that you dont see fit. Use another point to back-up your arguement to make it better.

2. You have discussed this subject in several different threads. Everyone has stated their opinion and will hold on to their beliefs. I believe it is time to let this thread die of natural causes. No sense in arguing the same points over and over again.

3. I have read your profile, and while you have alot of credentials at your young age, I find it hard to believe. Not calling you a liar, but just amazed at what you have accomplished. I also find it odd that while you no longer work in the EMS field, and from what i have understood, you do not wish to work in EMS again, you are sitting here saying what we should and should not do when you are not a provider yourself. As I said before if you want improvements you must be willing to work for it. It is one thing to type it up, it is completely another to actually do it.

4. Also, your pushy tone does not help you, it only hinders you, by causing people to automatically tune out on what you have to say, even if it is a good idea. Set a lighter tone and people would be more willing to hear you out.

5. Most basics lack the money to go to school on their own and some services are VERY selective on who they send to school based on availability of funds, and who Medical Director thinks is the best candidate. It is also hard due to many of them having families that cannot afford the time from home or work. The current pay scale of the majority of providers is what keeps us back. If there were ways to increase the pay and increase benefits I am sure you would find more basics and intermediates willing to go to school for a 4 year degree.

6. As for experience, my state once had a madatory 5 years of street experience before being eligible to apply for paramedic courses, and even at that, there was an entrance exam that you must pass. Honestly I think to bring this practice back would be beneficial in getting our EMTs ready for ALS skills after they have finished their EMT-B or EMT-I education. In my personal opinion we should be combining education and experience to bring out the best providers.

dr_Vfib

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Ditch,

I have been following this thread carefully for the past few weeks, there are several things that need to be addressed.

1. Yes we know you want to weed and wash out people from these programs that you dont see fit. Use another point to back-up your arguement to make it better.

I just think we should hold our students to the same standard that medical students, nursing students, respiratory students, radiology tech students and even medical residents are held to. Either make the grade or find another line of work.

2. You have discussed this subject in several different threads. Everyone has stated their opinion and will hold on to their beliefs. I believe it is time to let this thread die of natural causes. No sense in arguing the same points over and over again.

Nothing wrong with spirited debate, because we might actually come across ideas that work better than what you or I hold to be correct (see below).

3. I have read your profile, and while you have alot of credentials at your young age, I find it hard to believe. Not calling you a liar, but just amazed at what you have accomplished.

I don't have that many credentials for my age- I know a 22 y/o with more credentials than I hold. It's just that I choose to broadly apply what I have learned.

I also find it odd that while you no longer work in the EMS field, and from what i have understood, you do not wish to work in EMS again, you are sitting here saying what we should and should not do when you are not a provider yourself. As I said before if you want improvements you must be willing to work for it. It is one thing to type it up, it is completely another to actually do it.

When did I ever say I would never be involved with EMS again? I said I would never do it as a paid person again for a career. Big difference. I'm not running as a volunteer at the moment because I don't have the free time to do so between work, school, getting ready for the arrival of my daughter, etc. Trust me, I'm probably more dedicated to EMS than 95% of the people out there, but excuse me for having bigger aspirations and wishing to be in a position where I will have the disposable income to help support whatever volunteer agency I wind up with.

4. Also, your pushy tone does not help you, it only hinders you, by causing people to automatically tune out on what you have to say, even if it is a good idea. Set a lighter tone and people would be more willing to hear you out.

It's funny, the only people who "tune out" are those who don't agree with me, and those whom I have taken to task for being wrong, immature or grossly unprofessional. It's funny that someone who just arrived at this site deems himself worthy of trying to tell me how to conduct myself on this site- come see how I am in the chatroom, I'm far from a hardass once you get to know me. Personally if you think what I say on here, or whether I bother most people with my bluntness concerns me in the slightest, you need to step back and seriously reexamine things. Yes, I speak my mind and I don't coddle people, and if you don't like it, then ignore me.

5. Most basics lack the money to go to school on their own and some services are VERY selective on who they send to school based on availability of funds, and who Medical Director thinks is the best candidate. It is also hard due to many of them having families that cannot afford the time from home or work. The current pay scale of the majority of providers is what keeps us back. If there were ways to increase the pay and increase benefits I am sure you would find more basics and intermediates willing to go to school for a 4 year degree.

I don't buy that argument about not having the money to get the training. Two words: student loans. If you're taking your course through a college, you should not have any problem getting one.

Like I said before (and I know how you hate it when I repeat myself, so like I said before), things won't change until we change first. I hate to use nursing as an example, because nursing and EMS are not as similar as most think, but nurses did not start being well paid until after they began increasing their standards through education. Things just don't work the way you apparently believe they do.

6. As for experience, my state once had a madatory 5 years of street experience before being eligible to apply for paramedic courses, and even at that, there was an entrance exam that you must pass. Honestly I think to bring this practice back would be beneficial in getting our EMTs ready for ALS skills after they have finished their EMT-B or EMT-I education. In my personal opinion we should be combining education and experience to bring out the best providers.

I wholeheartedly agree with that statement. :D

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Since you asked for some idea of what I mean when I say increased educational requirements:

GENERAL EDUCATIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS- ALL TO BE COMPLETED PRIOR TO ENROLLMENT IN PRECLINICAL OR CLINCAL COURSES

-Biology (w/ labs) 8 sem hrs (general biology and microbiology)

-General chemistry (w/ lab) 8 sem hrs

-Organic chemistry (w/ lab) 8 sem hrs

-Biochemistry (lab optional) 3-4 sem hrs

-Human A+P (w/ lab) 8 sem hrs

-Pathophysiology 2-3 sem hrs

-English composition 3 sem hrs

-Public speaking 3 sem hrs

-General psychology 3 sem hrs

-Physics (w/ labs) 8 sem hrs

I'll post my ideas on preclinical and clinical education requirements later. I have errands to run at the moment.

I just wanted to add that this is very close to what a B.S.N. requires. It is a very good start, and very managable for a basic transitioning to medic. It might take more than 4 years if they have to go part-time, but if we want to increase the education and professional image of our field I think it's a great move.

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I was basing it off the requirements to gain entrance to medical school or PA school, because of the greater similarity of paramedicine to work as a PA or MD, than to the work of an RN.

I've not seen a nursing school that requires that much chemistry or physics for a BSN, but then again I'm only familiar with the requirements of two schools.

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As an ALS provider without a degree, I can say, yes there should be more of an education for EMTs and Paramedics. Should it be classroom? No not necessarily. There should be more hands on learning. It's the best kind. Being able to talk to your patients about current events and sports is fine, but it doesn't come from a school. It's your personality, and experience dealing with people. What will "weed out" the most people is to make them work a few 911 shifts on night shift in a major city. College isn't for every one. That is why there are technical schools. How will ems gain the respect it deserves without school?? Time and public education. We are still young. Nurses still don't get respect from MANY people. They see nurses as women wearing little skirts and hats doing nothing but taking orders from the doctor. I think that we all know they do much more!! I think that the first thing we should worry about is getting all of the certifications in the country the same. Some have 3 levels, and some have 4. Some intermediates can give meds, and some can only do IVs and ETs. We need some sort of common ground first. If higher education is needed, it will have to be brought on slowly.

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I personally feel that the EMT course is almost a giving for anyone who can just open their eyes at the beginning of a day..When i took my state EMT test i was blown away by some of these people..I think my dog is smarter then most of them..Who was sitting on the floor cursing at their friends and some whose pants were hanging off them with their boxers showing. At first i didn't think i was in the right area for the test and then someone announced, to please form a line soo we can enter the testing area..Too my surprise these same people were in line with me..Oh well..I guess because of the low salary maybe that's all they can find to do the job.

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I personally feel that the EMT course is almost a giving for anyone who can just open their eyes at the beginning of a day..When i took my state EMT test i was blown away by some of these people..I think my dog is smarter then most of them..Who was sitting on the floor cursing at their friends and some whose pants were hanging off them with their boxers showing. At first i didn't think i was in the right area for the test and then someone announced, to please form a line soo we can enter the testing area..Too my surprise these same people were in line with me..Oh well..I guess because of the low salary maybe that's all they can find to do the job.

I don't think that judging someone because they wear a certain style of clothes is very intelligent. I have met many people that wear a suit and tie that are bigger dumb-a$$e$ than some of the kids that have low rider pants. And as for cursing... Have you ever been in the service? Many very intelligent people join our armed forces and they "curse like a sailor".

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And as for cursing... Have you ever been in the service? Many very intelligent people join our armed forces and they "curse like a sailor".

Son of a b--ch, you're definitely total f--king right, a--hat (I don't really thinking you're an a--hat, more of a bastard (KIDDING!)) :D:lol:

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I don't think that judging someone because they wear a certain style of clothes is very intelligent. I have met many people that wear a suit and tie that are bigger dumb-a$$e$ than some of the kids that have low rider pants. And as for cursing... Have you ever been in the service? Many very intelligent people join our armed forces and they "curse like a sailor".

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