mobey Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 A little hypocritical, isn't it? So far, your only defence has been a steady stream of "what if I lose my licence" and "what if I get sued". What have you got that isn't a "what if"? The way I understand the way this question has ended up is: Would you sacrafice your licence to save a patient.... in which my answer is no. I probably sacrafice lives all the time in this bls service to save my cert. If the question posed is would I do the extrication if I would not lose my cert? then hell Ya. I am not "scared" to do anything if the only other outcome is death! So to echo my responce - I would not do this procedure to an uncertified body anymore than an emergency cric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustdevil Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 If the question posed is would I do the extrication if I would not lose my cert? then hell Ya. I am not "scared" to do anything if the only other outcome is death! That was how I interpreted the situation. Nobody asked what you would do in your current sytstem, under your current protocols, against all established policies and guidelines. It was asked if you would do so, given direct medical control, in a system where such is allowed, even if not in written protocol. Nobody's asking you to play cowboy. Just asking if you'd do it, given the urgency of the situation, and all the support of your MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfmanHarris Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 In that case if were an ALS provider (and thus actually had a scalpel on my Ambulance) than yes. Right now, nowhere in my gear do I have anything that could do it. It would be a multitool or trauma shears. Yikes. Just hopped off the fence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Plain Ruff Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 You're wrong. Although that may be the case in your area, In Saskatchewan the protocols are the maximum allowed procedures for the practitioner of the applicable level. Functioning beyond protocol is the same as beyond scope. Hope this might help avoid some misunderstanding. This was not my quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arctickat Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Sorry Ruffems, somehow your quote from docharris didn't take and I missed it....I'd change it to reflect that it was a quote from Doc Harris, but I can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akroeze Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 That was how I interpreted the situation. Nobody asked what you would do in your current sytstem, under your current protocols, against all established policies and guidelines. It was asked if you would do so, given direct medical control, in a system where such is allowed, even if not in written protocol. Nobody's asking you to play cowboy. Just asking if you'd do it, given the urgency of the situation, and all the support of your MD. I would do it if it could be said that it would be an accepted thing that any (not literally any, but majority) normal medic in my situation would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneEMTP Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 If the question posed is would I do the extrication if I would not lose my cert? then hell Ya. I am not "scared" to do anything if the only other outcome is death! You're talking out your ass here Mobey. Obviously you're scared to lose your certs despite the only logical outcome to this well defined scenario being death. You've drawn a line in the sand, ok. I don't agree with it, though I don’t completely disagree either, but it's your comfort zone man. I simply think that there is little time to think about politics when hinky situations arise, at least I'm not smart enough to do so. I think that too many of your patients are getting poor care if you have to do the cost/benefit of your certs vs treatment each time you come to a situation you're not sure of. Perhaps you don't have those situations, but I'm practically a factory for them. For me, I had to decide early on that I will perform what I logically and intellectually believe to be the best interventions, making every attempt to stay within protocol and SOP if possible of course, and should I lose my cert for providing proper (Defined as: proven in hindsight to have been of obvious benefit to my viable patients) care then I don't want to play anymore anyway. Have a good day all… Dwayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneEMTP Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I would do it if it could be said that it would be an accepted thing that any (not literally any, but majority) normal medic in my situation would do. Yeah, I think you're missing the point then. If it was a procedure that any run of the mill medic would be expected to perform as a normal standard of care it wouldn't be much of a scenariou, right? That's the point though, almost non of the above average medics here would do so, so does that mean that you won't either, simply because they won't? Is that you're standard of care, then, do do what others believe is right? From your posting history, you don't strike me as a follower. What is your personal standard? Not busting your balls brother, just playing devil's advocate. Dwayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobey Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 You're talking out your ass here Mobey. Obviously you're scared to lose your certs despite the only logical outcome to this well defined scenario being death. You've drawn a line in the sand, ok. I don't agree with it, though I don’t completely disagree either, but it's your comfort zone man. I simply think that there is little time to think about politics when hinky situations arise, at least I'm not smart enough to do so. I think that too many of your patients are getting poor care if you have to do the cost/benefit of your certs vs treatment each time you come to a situation you're not sure of. Perhaps you don't have those situations, but I'm practically a factory for them. For me, I had to decide early on that I will perform what I logically and intellectually believe to be the best interventions, making every attempt to stay within protocol and SOP if possible of course, and should I lose my cert for providing proper (Defined as: proven in hindsight to have been of obvious benefit to my viable patients) care then I don't want to play anymore anyway. Have a good day all… Dwayne WTF was that?? Of course I am scared to lose my certs!! Are you actually suggesting I become a renegade EMT doing what ever I "feel" I should do as long as I logically and intellectually believe to be the best interventions? Just beacause I am not willing to "Risk it all" for one patient I am suddenly some inferior EMT and my patients are getting poor care? Really.... how about you answer my question about me (Bls) doing a cric?? I am NOT willing to perform an intervention that I KNOW will end my career in EMS if that makes me a poor provider then so be it. Perhaps it is common practice in your area for bls crews to do whatever they "Feel" is appropriate, but around here "Big Brother" would hang us pretty quick. So to clarify my stance on this subject Do the extrication and lose certs but save one life = NO Do the extrication and keep certs to stay in same career justifying all my hard work over the last 5 years = YES Am I the only BLS provider out there who has had patients die under thier care because the law/cert ties thier hands?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akroeze Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Honestly I don't know what I'd do in that situation. I would have to be in it before I knew. Kind of a cop out I know but it is what it is. You could throw in so many variables it is hard to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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