"We confuse how we feel with knowledge."

[emtannie]

This is truly a sad state of affairs.

Although some posters have said that the parents and the schools are to blame, which I partially agree with, it is much bigger than that. The US has allowed education to not be a worthwhile career choice financially, which has kept many good teachers out of the educational system (much like EMS). Funding has been woefully inadequate for decades, both for infrastructure and maintenance, as well as salaries and benefits.

Years ago, parents told their children "get an education - you will get farther ahead in this world." Now, children are more encouraged to spend time with Nintendo or Wii rather than learn something new.

I know the mantra "no child left behind" and in my opinion, this has been a terrible mistake. Rather than allowing for failure and trying to get that child to master skills at certain levels, we have pushed them ahead, and ignored the fact that they do not know how to read, to spell, or to do simple math. In some cases the child has disabilities which do not allow them to mature at the same level as the other students, and they get "left behind" regardless of being in the same class. The other students, either intentionally or unintentionally, begin to exclude then from their social circles, and they are left out even though the system has pushed them forward.

Solving this has to come from several fronts. Parents have to instill a love of learning in their children, and be role models. School divisions and government have to restructure the educational system. Facilities have to be improved, cirriculums have to be restructured, and staffing needs to meet more stringent minimum standards, and the salary levels have to accommodate the education required. It will be an expensive fix, and the rewards of it won't be seen for a decade or more, which is why it does not happen. Politicians only see 3 - 4 years into the future, and are not willing to take on issues that will take a generation to solve.

[reaper]

This is a problem that the parents must deal with! I take my kids to the library once a week. They will each come home will at least 10 books. I have always been a big reader, so that rubs off on the children.

If I forget about going, my kids will come to me and ask to go. That makes me smile inside!

The biggest problem with the children today, is the parents not caring or taking an active role in your child's education experience. Do not blame the school systems. They are overworked and underpaid. Their hands are tied on how they can teach. They can only do so much, with the kids they have. If parents do not want to make sure their kids are educated, then they can only lay the blame on themselves.

So everyone out there that has kids, take an hour and take your kids to the library. It's free and you will introduce your kids to a whole new world of adventure.

[Michael]

If the following is too long to read, here's a short version.

[web:44e4de5da5]http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/[/web:44e4de5da5]

[WolfmanHarris]

Thanks Michael. These were exactly the articles I needed to read as I sat down after to dinner to study again. Helped put things back into perspective when I was feeling tired and just wanted to veg.

I also passed them onto a friend who's a new first time parent. Suggested he print it off and refer to it again when his son is learning to read, entering school, etc.

I still get the business from anyone I talk to about my university degree while at my current school. I get the oddest looks when I explain that my degree is in philosophy and that I took it out of interest more than anything else. I usually joke that there "weren't a lot of jobs at the philosophy factory," and that I didn't know what I wanted to do for sure until the end of my undergrad. I don't regret my studies though. I curse the mound of debt its left me with and I regret not taking more science as electives (nothing beyond first year bio and second year neuropsych) as it would have helped me more in my current education, but even if given the option I wouldn't go back and go straight form high school to Paramedic school.

Maybe tonight I'll read something not a textbook and not fiction.

Thanks again!

Edit: Anyone else read the short version of that accompanied the second article and then feel profoundly guilty when they got back to it and read the whole thing?

[Michael]

I get the oddest looks when I explain that my degree is in philosophy and that I took it out of interest more than anything else.

[web:b975eae94b]http://books.google.com/books?id=w8iWuhJbpr8C&pg=PA38&dq=%22You+wouldn%27t+say+that+if+you+didn%27t+have+the+mind+of+a+slave%22[/web:b975eae94b]

[DwayneEMTP]

Yeah, pretty disappointing article that goes back to teaching pseudoscience as actual scientific data.

The main issue I have with it all, though I have many, is that it doesn't address the behavior issues associated with their findings. The 'when' and 'how' of the things they said are almost certainly much more important than the 'what'.

"Dweck had suspected that praise could backfire, but even she was surprised by the magnitude of the effect. “Emphasizing effort gives a child a variable that they can control,” she explains."

This comment leads me to believe that Dweck is unable even to define the definition of a variable, which causes her entire little shindig to come into question for me. Praise, first of all, is not a 'thing', nor is ‘effort’, therefore can not be considered a specific variable, particularly when it's being applied by many people to the same child without a solid scientific control for it's application. The praise she speaks of has a timing element, there is the tone of voice, the body language of the presenter, how the applied 'praise' is actually considered reinforcing or not to the individual, etc. Yet they see only the type and number of words used as being important.

Praise and punishment work on behaviors, with the behaviors of 'effort' often being very evident, if incredibly varied. The problem they failed to address, though it is common knowledge in psychology circles, is that praising effort over accomplishment is well proved to be destructive in the long term to children. Praise and punishment work when applied directly to a specific behavior, at specific times. When does effort begin? When are you done? When have you succeeded at producing the proper amount of effort? Are some types of 'effort' better than others? Reinforcing 'effort' over success has shown over and over to produce angry, frustrated, disheartened children, that often become the same type of adults, as their compass for recognizing and applying rational reinforcers has been tweaked off of true.

"...she flatly wasn’t interested in brief tests without long-term follow-up...." As she should be. it sounds to me as though she saw this "study" as the bullshit that it is. To draw the sweeping conclusions from this polluted data, as they have, shows that they began with an agenda, and carefully set out to fulfill it.

Behavioral psychology is very clear on the damage that false praise causes. Telling your child that they are smart without attaching it to a success is certainly a poor plan. Praise, if done properly, is a reinforcer. Reiforcers that are not used logically, and at appropriate times are lies. Even small children understand you aren't worth listening to if you're unwilling to tell the truth.

This 'study' is almost all holes and very little substance. The fact that they failed to address, at least in the article, any aspect of the behavioral quantities obviously associated with such a study, and should be well known by any serious psychological researcher, tells me that they intended, and it appears succeeded, to be dishonest from the beginning, in the hopes that their nonsense would translate into pseudosense and be well digested when dispersed. Shame on them.

And the attached abridged version? Ridiculous. The Dr. speaks of self esteem, and personal responsibility, as something given to children as opposed to something that is developed over time via a complex stew of successes and failures. To call the attempts at modern education theory, though obviously flawed and in it's infancy, "A bunch of feelgood nonesense" once again makes it impossible for me to take his opinion seriously.

Though both do fit nicely with the original topic of this thread.

Dwayne

[Michael]

Well, below is a maybe more nuanced approach. But I suspect there's not enough cheese at the end of this maze to hash out another fight with Dwayne.

As to praising or not praising children, how about let's just leave it out of the equation and not distract them from the intrinsic satisfactions (rewards) of accomplishing challenging projects? I don't think it helps kids to be compulsively checking How'm I doin'? How'm I doin'? Man, just dive into the situation and forget about yourself a while! That's what generates liveliness in experience.

[web:30d2dba7d8]http://www.valt.helsinki.fi/blogs/jmikkone/post11.htm[/web:30d2dba7d8]

[Michael]

And while we're at it... 8)

[web:29b60fb848]http://www.amazon.com/pseudo-science-B-F-Skinner/dp/0870002368[/web:29b60fb848]

[DwayneEMTP]

Well, below is a maybe more nuanced approach. But I suspect there's not enough cheese at the end of this maze to hash out another fight with Dwayne.

Shoot, I've just only finished licking my wounds from our last go-round, but I think I'm back in fighting prime. Just give me a minute to stretch a bit....I'm not as young as I used to be. :wink:

As to praising or not praising children, how about let's just leave it out of the equation and not distract them from the intrinsic satisfactions (rewards) of accomplishing challenging projects? I don't think it helps kids to be compulsively checking How'm I doin'? How'm I doin'? Man, just dive into the situation and forget about yourself a while! That's what generates liveliness in experience.

I believe your plan is excellent, but only if we're able to go back a hundred years. We are certainly biologically programmed to follow reinforcers, and as children are normally unable to sit still for long, or able to allow their brains to relax very often, then allowing them to find their way was an outstanding idea. It led to adventure, exploration, exercise, both alone, but most often with others. Those things had to happen if children were to follow their biological programming.

The difference today is that for many, perhaps most, kids, that is not where mental stimulation, which most children find very reinforcing, or exploration and adventure come from. Today’s reinforcers can perhaps be considered pathologic to normal development, thought time will have to tell. Today video games are much more stimulating than soccer, much more engaging than one's parents. To get bragging rights, you now need to pass the highest level, or be amongst the first to see the latest shock video on Youtube instead of run the fastest or catch the biggest snake. I'm not sure how we could create an environment in the physical world that can compete with those now. On a temporary basis, sure, but not for extended, healthy development.

I believe there is a reason we can't go back to the 'good ol' days', and that is because life has gotten too complex. The reinforcers of yesterday no longer apply in the electronic age. One of the many reasons I get so frustrated at the mention of "All this feelgood silliness."

The ignorant, in my opinion, want to go back to the way things were. For us to do that, ALL things must go back to the way they were, not just our treatment of children. Back in the "good ol' days" children “knew their place.” But so did women and "coloreds". Not so good right?

Have we swung the pendulum too far in this new, touchy/feely direction? I believe we absolutely have. But we MUST. We need to know what exists on that side of the spectrum. There is no way to develop a happy medium when you only have access to a single side of the equation.

I believe your logic is good Michael, and you'll be happy to know that your thoughts were B.F. Skinners pipe dream for the world. But I believe your thoughts have surpassed their expiration date. They are spoiled now, turned to curdle from the terawatts of electrical information that flows through the young minds of our children every day.

Is that terrible? It can be, if we choose to believe that it's simply spoiled milk and throw it out instead of adding some intelligent ingredients to make it cheese.

Thanks for your thoughts...

Dwayne

[Michael]

I'm not sure how we could create an environment in the physical world that can compete with those now. On a temporary basis, sure, but not for extended, healthy development.

There is no way to develop a happy medium when you only have access to a single side of the equation.

I believe your thoughts have surpassed their expiration date. They are spoiled now.

some intelligent ingredients to make it cheese

Concerning spoilage resulting from electronic shock, here is one preventive approach.

Disclosure: I have been a recipient of, and a teacher in, and a teacher-educator for - to extend your metaphor - this method of culturing your maturing milk into cheese. Bon appétit!