paramedicmike Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Can't tell if this is sarcasm, but I'm reading it as so..? People walk the streets every day with people beside them carrying a firearm not knowing it? You're finding way too many instances of sarcasm in this thread where none exists. I understand you're passionate about this discussion, but come on man! Relax a little! We're not *all* out to get you! [humour] Just the guys in the black uniforms and the black helicopters. They're the only ones.[/humour] -be safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPINFV Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 The funny thing was that this wasn't an issue when Charles Whitman took to the tower at UT Austin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUemt Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 You're finding way too many instances of sarcasm in this thread where none exists. I understand you're passionate about this discussion, but come on man! Relax a little! We're not *all* out to get you! [humour] Just the guys in the black uniforms and the black helicopters. They're the only ones.[/humour] -be safe Haha, it's been a rough week of tests and such - sorry for popping in :oops:. And btw, my avatar has nothing to do with my views on this discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenac Posted April 16, 2008 Author Share Posted April 16, 2008 The funny thing was that this wasn't an issue when Charles Whitman took to the tower at UT Austin. Nope many armed citizens opened return fire on him aiding law enforcement. Someone stated having armed people would require officers attention to be diverted. Nope. All people that an officer comes upon should be considered armed and a suspect until cleared. This should be part of the planning that takes place. So they would be treated the same regardless of gun or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eydawn Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 The thing that gets me about all of these incidents is that the gunman had TIME TO RELOAD... If I can eliminate reload time, I can decrease total casualty number. If I can eliminate reload time by shooting the whackjob, I will do so. If I can eliminate it by getting out of the room and returning with 6 frat boys and 3 fire extinguishers (can't aim if your face is full of anhydrous ammonia...) I will do so. Am I willing to get shot in the attempt to take out a gunman? You bet. Better I get hit fighting back than wait for him to come shoot me as I cower under my desk. I don't think we need to arm students PHYSICALLY as much as we need to do so MENTALLY. You know what? If this had been a hundred years ago, people would have been diving at the person throwing everything they could lay hands on at them. We've been brought up to be sheep... and as sheep, we are slaughtered... I refuse to go out with a BAA. I've known ever since I entered the public school system that it only takes a few people to stand up and change the course of history. Don't let yourself be shot. Try to go down fighting. You might just make the difference... and odds are you weren't making it out of the room alive anyway after Mr. Whacko decided to go out in a blaze of glory.... Wendy CO EMT-B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asysin2leads Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 The thing that gets me about all of these incidents is that the gunman had TIME TO RELOAD... If I can eliminate reload time, I can decrease total casualty number. If I can eliminate reload time by shooting the whackjob, I will do so. If I can eliminate it by getting out of the room and returning with 6 frat boys and 3 fire extinguishers (can't aim if your face is full of anhydrous ammonia...) I will do so. Am I willing to get shot in the attempt to take out a gunman? You bet. Better I get hit fighting back than wait for him to come shoot me as I cower under my desk. You've never actually been in a situation where someone started shooting, have you? I find your frat boys and fire extinguisher plan for defense amusing, but this isn't Die Hard. Doing that will get you shot and killed. If someone starts shooting, the best tactic is to run away, as fast as you can. Secondly, it takes less than 20 seconds to reload a modern handgun. Even if you are Bruce Jenner combined with John McClane, you still don't have much of a chance. And how do you none of the people killed weren't attempting to disarm him? Lack of fire extinguishers found on scene? I don't think we need to arm students PHYSICALLY as much as we need to do so MENTALLY. You know what? If this had been a hundred years ago, people would have been diving at the person throwing everything they could lay hands on at them. We've been brought up to be sheep... and as sheep, we are slaughtered... Wait, the guy on TV said it was because we've become a more violent society that these things happen. Which is it? I'm not sure where we get the notion that 100 years ago all was peachy and men were men and women all looked like pin ups, etc. etc, but it just ain't true. 100 years ago the average life expectancy was around 40. Disease was rampant. People lived in tenements and people were commonly lynched. I'll take the modern world instead. I refuse to go out with a BAA. I've known ever since I entered the public school system that it only takes a few people to stand up and change the course of history. Don't let yourself be shot. Try to go down fighting. You might just make the difference... and odds are you weren't making it out of the room alive anyway after Mr. Whacko decided to go out in a blaze of glory.... Wendy CO EMT-B You know, its one thing to believe in the right to keep and bear arms. Its quite another to pretty much state that the reason Virginia Tech happened was because the students were cowards. That's just plain not nice. I'll never quite understand the people who blame the ones who get shot and killed rather than the gunman, but that's just me. I tend to look for the simple answers. Like it or not the reason Virginia Tech happened was because an asshole got his hands on a firearm when he shouldn't have. Its kinda like why 9/11 happened. It happened because some assholes hijacked an airliner, that's the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenac Posted April 17, 2008 Author Share Posted April 17, 2008 You know, its one thing to believe in the right to keep and bear arms. Its quite another to pretty much state that the reason Virginia Tech happened was because the students were cowards. That's just plain not nice. I'll never quite understand the people who blame the ones who get shot and killed rather than the gunman, but that's just me. I tend to look for the simple answers. Like it or not the reason Virginia Tech happened was because an asshole got his hands on a firearm when he shouldn't have. Its kinda like why 9/11 happened. It happened because some assholes hijacked an airliner, that's the reason. I never took for one minute that Wendy called anybody a coward. Please don't turn what has been a nice discussion into a pointless battle. Thank You. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustdevil Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 I tend to look for the simple answers. Like it or not the reason Virginia Tech happened was because an asshole got his hands on a firearm when he shouldn't have. Actually, you overlooked the simple answer. The key term there is "asshole", not "firearm." Everybody knew the guy was an asshole, but nobody did anything about it. Hell, simply tightening up immigration policy would have stopped Virginia Tech. How hard is that? Persecuting guns hurts everybody. Persecuting assholes only hurts the assholes, and helps everybody else. When assholes are outlawed, only outlaws will be assholes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPINFV Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 I'd say that everyone knew he was weird, strange, or even mildly unstable prior to the event, but not quite an asshole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eydawn Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 Asys, you misread the intent of what I was saying. I was not laying any sort of personal blame on any of the victims of any of the mass school shooting incidents that have occurred in America. Here's what I'm trying to get at. This is a novel problem that nobody has managed to find a solution to yet. I'm proposing a hypothesis that could potentially decrease the total number of casualties in this sort of situation, one that seems feasible and logical to me. As to your question about my personal experience with gunfire... there are bullets lodged in the front door of my childhood home and I have been in close proximity to live fire from gang and drug related activity multiple times in my life. Yes, the instinct (and a damn good one at that) is to get away and get down low where you can't be hit by errant fire. The situation changes drastically when you are in an enclosed space with limited exits that may actually be TARGETS for a deranged gun wielding asshole. I *don't* know that people didn't die trying to disarm the assholes. Well, in the case of Columbine, if you've ever viewed the tapes... but who could blame the kids. That was Hell visiting Earth that day. What I do know is that the standard modes that we've been taught to deal with crises involving weapons are no longer applicable in situations like Virginia Tech... except for those lucky enough to be outside of the immediate room. We've been taught "go along with the bank robber... get down... do what they say... give them your wallet... they'll go away and leave you alone... you have one life, your schit is replaceable" etc. But that's not what these school shootings are about. These school shootings are a rampage intended to take as much life as possible. These psychos go and shoot people who are cowering under desks, pleading for their lives to be spared. Ergo, what I am saying is that since we haven't developed a model to deal with violence of this nature (and nothing disparaging against any campus police force, but they simply will *never* be able to get there in time... especially on any sort of larger campus like my own or VA Tech... with miscommunication, deployment time..) that I advocate taking responsibility into your own hands. This is a purely personal decision. You can choose to attempt to take down the person bent on killing you with whatever resources you have at hand, or you can try to escape. The choice is yours... My choice is to attempt to gain the upper hand, especially if the doors are a target... because effectively, if I sit there, I'm already dead. At least I'll die trying to do something contributing to my own salvation. Wendy CO EMT-B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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