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Your also right, I don't have to outrun the aggressor, I just have to outrun my partner.

I am not giving up the donuts for healthy food or my recliner for an exercise machine. You are just asking way to much.

Do you like Dunkin Donuts ? I will buy. :twisted: :twisted:

I slay me :lol:

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Firstly: The whole concept of BULLETPROOF is a sham, as the shotgun is very effective tool for finding holes / chinks in lots of body armour and under the arm is a big cop killer, as are head shots. The whole idea is a misnomer and unless one is wearing a level 3 "ceramic plates" type BODY ARMOUR and a Kevlar Lid, so if you have one inkling to wear this level of protection working on a truck. Are you considering or subjecting oneself to a higher than "regular" threat level ? Just saying a bit of false sence of security. If one is working in a tactical support or combat role well that's a tad different and then it should not be issue it should be issue ! period.

In passing Combat small arms Schools are even teaching a different stance when confronting a shooter based on this evidence, well that's what I have been told and only when exchanging lead. :wink:

cheers

Well you are right about the change in stance but I think it goes against what you are saying. The traditional method for facing a threat was the weaver stance which is basically blading yourself with your dominant foot back. They found that this opens the weak side arm pit (as you mentioned) to gsw. The new stance is to face the threat directly so your body armor can provide it's maximum level of effectiveness. The vests can be bought off ebay for relatively cheap. Sure they have expiration dates but they have found that a lot of the expiration dates are like those on medications....you can extend the life by a few years. There have been many studies on this....just look it up. Some fabrics like zytel have been recalled after failing an unusual amount of times so research your material as well. Basically they are hot and uncomfortable but if you get shot then that will be the day you wish you'd worn it. Personal decision...been discussed plenty before

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I think it goes against what you are saying.

Maybe its my composition? :lol:

Basically saying .... if you don't have PPE and correct training for the "job" then don't subject yourself to the possible hazard (s) and if an Operator is not providing the PPE maybe best to go look for another Operator that will.

I try not to get into the details in these forums as your passing comments may be misconstrewed, and not trying to be snotty or anything ... really. But it may be best to take a proper recognised tactical course, the weaver stance or squared stance is useless unless are armed yourself.

A topic in its own right .

Oh yea just my 2 cents but using an "expired" Vest is the same hazard as using "expired" Climbing Rope or "expired" Meds ... I so try to extend MY expiry dates by using my common sense.

cheers

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Personally I don't think body armor is a bad idea for EMS. Though not rated for it, it will provide some protection from stab wounds as well.

I think I've posted on this topic here before, but to reiterate:

- Avoid Zylon. Was recalled due to early failures, and some officers lost their lives to figure this out.

- Avoid a used vest if practical

- Avoid laminates like Goldflex, Spectra, and others. (as opposed to WOVEN vests made of Kevlar or Twaron) Laminates are fine in rigid armor (and are used to back ceramic plates and steel sometimes), but in soft armor, creases will cause fibers to migrate and gaps in coverage. Laminate is also more vulnerable to contact shots, which represent 30% of officer shootings.

- All-woven Kevlar vests will provide excellent protection long past their "expiration" date.

'zilla

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Another problem I have with body armor is the mentality that it produces that the wearer is safer then they are.

Yes it provides some stab protection, mostly slashing and upward stabbing motion. But a strong downward stroke, like at the chest will go through it like butter. Also keep in mind that hardcore criminals know this better than most cops. They study books like Gray's and learn where to stab and kill even with a vest. Same with shooting, they know as much as officers about head shots and leg shots. Keep in mind the last three deaths of record were 2 assassinations and 1 sniper, a vest would not have helped.

Maybe it's just me, my brother and father survived as Police Officer's without vests and I don't see why I should wear one as a Paramedic.

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Scaramedic said:

"Keep in mind the last three deaths of record were 2 assassinations and 1 sniper, a vest would not have helped. "

What does that mean?

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The last three GSW deaths of EMS workers were in 2004. Two were killed in quarters by an ex-boyfriend and the third was an ambush/sniper situation. Vests (that EMS has access to) don't help head shots and high powered rifle hits.

Now if we're talking Dragonskin then one of them would have survived, but how many EMS personnel want to pay for Dragonskin. If they could even get it.

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Maybe it's just me, my brother and father survived as Police Officer's without vests and I don't see why I should wear one as a Paramedic.

Interesting. In any other intelligent discussion, I would expect you to be one of us saying that you should not base such important decisions on nothing more than anecdotal evidence. Perhaps you would think differently if your brother or father were on this web site.

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Interesting. In any other intelligent discussion, I would expect you to be one of us saying that you should not base such important decisions on nothing more than anecdotal evidence. Perhaps you would think differently if your brother or father were on this web site.

Dust thats just dirty providing a reality check like that.

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Another problem I have with body armor is the mentality that it produces that the wearer is safer then they are. . . .

But a strong downward stroke, like at the chest will go through it like butter. Also keep in mind that hardcore criminals know this better than most cops. They study books . . . .

Keep in mind the last three deaths of record were 2 assassinations and 1 sniper, a vest would not have helped. . . .

my brother and father survived as Police Officer's without vests and I don't see why I should wear one as a Paramedic.

-Sure, the vest might create a mentality, but I think the protection outweighs the the mentality issues. Valid concern, though.

-Hardcore smart criminals may now how to stab through a vest, but most attackers of EMS probably aren't smart hardcore criminals. I don't think any of the physical altercations I've been on as an EMT have been with such.

-From 1992 to 1997, 114 EMS personnel were killed on the job. 67 from ground transportation accidents and 10 from homicides (mostly shootings). Then, add in the MVA's and shootings of those who didn't die, but had temporary or permanent injury. Remember, vests help with MVA's too.

-Your brother and father survived without vests...but so did the great majority of police officers. But every year there's a list of those who didn't...the point is for them to do what they can to stay off that list...because someone's going to be on it...try to make it not you.

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