Jehovah's Witness Interference with Pediatric Care

[Just Plain Ruff]

It is not our place to judge what the religious beliefs of patients are. Nor is it our place to judge what the religious beliefs of those who post here are.

I've taken care of many Jehovah's Witnesses in my career, many needing blood many not.

I've never had any of the Jehovah's witnesses refuse treatment except for blood and it's byproducts such as platelets and such.

We are not here to judge their decision, it's no different than someone refusing to go to the ER in your ambulance when you really know they need to go but they refuse.

It's no different when they refuse to stay inthe hospital for an MI and they go home and die.

It's a refusal of care and as such, they have the right to refuse any and all forms of medical treatment that is offered to them. They can refuse one part or the entire part.

I know how hard it is to watch a JW(jehovah's witness but it's too long to type) succumb to blood loss and refusal to get blood but it's just as hard to watch a person go home after an MI.

I had a patient, RLDS member who was having stroke like symptoms. She was lucid one minute and stroke like the next. While she was lucid she would refuse care until an elder got to her house but when she went out implied consent applied. We put her on the stretcher and she became lucid. She refused again. She went out again and we took her to the ambulance. She became lucid again and she demanded to get off the cot and go back inher house. She signed the refusal and we after much discussion left.

I told her and her family that this was the precurser of a major stroke and she WAS going to get worse. They said they understood but they still would not let us take her.

We left, caught another call and while transporting the patient another ambulance responded to her house and she had indeed had a major stroke and it ended up killing her.

I chatted with the neurologist about her case to find out if I did anything wrong or could have done something different and he told me that she would have survived had she have consented to go to the ER when we were there. Her stroke was not hemmorhagic but was caused by a clot. I knew what i did was right but it still haunts me sometimes that I didn't do enough.

Did I let it get me down or upset because she refused care? Not really I was upset I couldn't persuade her or her family but religious beliefs run very very strong in some people and no matter what you say to them you cannot change their faith or their minds.

[WelshMedic]

Hi Spenac,

Thank you for the link. It makes interesting watching and auto-transfusion has, undoubtedly, improved medical care in these cases. However, auto-transfusion is only suitable for certain types of surgery. There is also a plethora of hematological conditions that can only be alleviated by transfusion.

My point, by the way, was the misinformation that I have encoutered. I stated that plasma expanders were being propagated as a qualitative equal partner to whole blood. That is just not true. I wish it were, we'd be saving a whole lot more people; but plasma expanders just do not have oxygen transport properties that whole blood does.

I'm off to work now, (nights, errrgh..) maybe we can spar again later?

WM

[VentMedic]

Vent thanks for your input. That is sad that someone would abandon their child for any reason. I assure you that the refusal of blood transfusion by a Jehovah's Witness is not abandonment. They still want the best care just minus the blood. There are many bloodless hospitals worldwide now. Many new better procedures that benefit all have been developed because of our stand.

We do try to respect the different religions and cultures. Where we can we'll use the cell-saver or try to get their Hb up with meds. However, mishaps in utero or at birth may leave little time to prevent the baby from suffering permanent damage. As much as we would like to respect the wishes, it is hard to let a baby die when blood was the thing they needed to save their life. That leaves a lasting memory of frustration for the health care providers.

[captainstandup]

I realize religion is touchy but for the sake of discussion, lets say the parents of a five year old practice a hypothetical religion which prevents them from accepting medical care for any reason, under the guise that whatever happens is "Gods will".

Now let’s say, again for the sake of discussion, this child suffers 20% second and 10% third degree burns and is in intense pain with possible airway complications. Instead of calling 911 the family summons church members and they hold vigil praying around the child as it lays suffering and dying, but they continue in their belief that this incident is a result of "God's will" and do not call for help. Later in the evening the child finally succumbs to injuries and airway edema. The family and church members accept this again as "God's will" or rationalize the Childs death in the belief their faith was not strong enough to save them.

1) How is their refusal to call for help different than the Jehovah’s Witness refusal to allow

potentially life saving therapy for their child?

2) How do you suppose the Sheriff's Office will react to the child's death when they are

notified?

3) How many children grow up and choose a different religion than their parents? Perhaps

this hypothetical child would have chosen a different faith and one that would have saved

their life?

4) Muslim extremists believe it to be honorable and perfectly within "God's, or Allah's, law

to strap a bomb on twelve year old and send them into a crowded market to kill the

Infidel. (You can’t preach cultural understanding of one religion without wholesale

acceptance of all religions, regardless of their psychosis)

The point I'm trying to make is that in my opinion this is an area of human existence that simply requires intercession on the behalf of those too young to assert their religious beliefs. We as pre hospital providers often intercede on behalf of those who cannot assert their wishes under the law of implied consent. It seems elementary that in spite of parental religious practice a child would choose to live instead of suffer and die. Once they are eighteen they should be able to decide entirely regarding acceptance of any therapy.

[spenac]

I do feel that we must act in harmony with our prayers and do all we can within the guidelines from the bible. Based on my study of the bible I feel it is wrong to accept blood but other than that I want the best care possible. And honestly as already stated if I'll die w/o odds are I'll still die with blood transfusion.

I respect your views and on behalf of my spiritual family I thank those of you that have respected our faith by not forcing blood transfusions. This is an educated decision we make to adhere to God's word. Yes some may make mistakes in their understanding of medical science, obviously by the many mistakes discussed here on the city even us healthcare professionals still don't understand it all. Our decision would not change even if there were no other options available.

This topic is one that will not be solved here. On the site that I linked is a lot of info on many alternatives to blood transfusions along with references to many of the most reputable medical organizations. There are stats and facts from those medical organizations that might just change you view of the medical value of blood transfusions in our day and age. There are several videos and other written information. Hospitals can request a seminar that even goes much deeper so that healthcare professionals will better be able to treat all patients not just Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Connie31079]

All that I know is, if my child is sick or injured and needs blood to survive, then they're going to get the blood! I don't care what religion I am! The health care system is going to do whatever they feel necessary to save my child!

I have a few friends who are Jehovah's Witnesses, and we've had this dicsussion before. I just can't seem to wrap my head around the whole "no blood" issue if your child is dying, and if blood will save them. I mean, I'm Catholic, and I go to church every week when I'm not working, but there are some things the Catholic Church teaches that I don't agree with, such as contraceptives.

The Catholic Church is against contraceptives, because they want us to "go forth and multiply".....obviously, contraceptives would interfere with that! But if I'm not ready to bring a child into this world for one reason or another, then I'm going to use contraceptives, I don't give a god-damn what the Catholic Church says!

Does that make me a bad Catholic? I don't think so. I don't feel you need to believe in every aspect of your religion to be a member in good standing.

Same thing with Jehovahs in my opinion, you can be a good Jehovah, but if your child is dying and needs blood, then to hell with your religion! This is YOUR CHILD we're talking about!

[VentMedic]

I respect religion but I can tell you from my experiences of working in NICU and PICU that it is truly not a good experience to watch an infant or child struggle for life while the lawyers and judges have to race the clock to get a court order. Sometimes they are too late and the child does die and many times needlessly. Sometimes we do get the court order or finally the family's consent after they see their child's life drain away. Often it is too late and the child may end up with a trach and peg with a life in a pedi nursing home. It is as bad as watching someone drown and not being able to give them a life line.

These are not isolated incidents but happen frequently in NICUs and PICUs across the country as some babies are born with imperfect hearts and children do get injured. Cardiac babies with cyanotic heart defects must keep a higher HCT if they are to survive till surgery. Not all the alternatives for not using blood are appropriate for small children.

While yes, I respect religion, at least give the babies a chance to grow up to decide their own religion.

And as I mentioned before, it is not always about religion. Adults have a way of pushing their own agendas, such as in divorce cases, and forgetting the child. Some people are also too afraid to make decisions because they are overwhelmed by the world of medicine that can come at them fast and hard.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Spenac, I'm curious. where in the bible does it say no blood transfusions? I have read the bible fully and I cannot recall that it says that at all.

Let's not get into a spiritual debate but can you pm me some specific scripture that says no transfusions or what not.

let me know.

[spenac]

Spenac, I'm curious. where in the bible does it say no blood transfusions? I have read the bible fully and I cannot recall that it says that at all.

Let's not get into a spiritual debate but can you pm me some specific scripture that says no transfusions or what not.

let me know.

I am responding on the forum as others had this question as well.

Acts 15: 20,29 Says abstain from blood. A transfusion is a use of blood, so should not be done.

15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood

15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

There are other scriptures that state not to eat blood, some in Leviticus. An IV is a means of feeding someone, so taking in blood by it would be just like eating it.

But this is not a religion forum so as you said will not get into scriptural debate. The only reason I even responded on this thread was a blatant miss statement that the parents killed their child.

Again refer to the links provided and you will find information from medical professionals that are not Jehovah's Witnesses. There is also some brief and if you want in depth scriptural discussions on there that will give you more explanation of our beliefs.

Please do not judge based on hearsay. Get the facts. (It always amazes me just as a side point how many claim we do not believe in Jesus, sorry just another thing people believe based on hearsay.)

Those employed in hospitals should contact the number on the video link page and have a free seminar at the hospital explaining more ways to work with us and the many others that refuse blood for other reasons, might learn some new methods that improve all patient care.

This is an emotionally charged subject that can not be done justice on line. But just know that we love our children and want the best of care minus the use of blood which is not asking much considering all the medical advances since the 60's.

On this site I often hear that we make no advancements in EMS well the use of blood has had many advances that many doctors, hospitals and others in medicine seem to have missed.

I will avoid responding on this topic any further so we don't get accused of it becoming a scriptural debate. Just please do not make false emotional charges.

[xselerate]

I find it hard to connect to this topic. We don't give blood in the field, period. I have had family members of pediatrics and non-alert adults try to prevent care or transport and it's always just been a simple matter of calling for PD and a supervisor. Family will either have to step back or be forced back by PD.

And while there is the likelihood that injuries requiring life saving transfusions may be terminal anyway, we must accept the reality that putting something in someone's veins that can carry oxygen saves lives... so I wonder if their are any endeavors by this particular religious community to finance research into blood-alternatives. I'am certainly not up on such research, but I think if we stocked 1 liter bags of saline/synthetic hemoglobin mix I would have heard something.