*** CDN BACON ***

I was unaware of the rules of the PM..thats my fault...I just assumed that if you don't want it to bite you in the ass don't put it in print .....much the way the real world works...I am hard pressed to receive a disrespectful unsolicited PM and do nothing... If the worse thing I do today is call out someone who'd rather hide behind a PM than openly discuss their opinion then so be it..... This will likely be my last post as I have received another PM from the originator of the previous PM hiding behind Mommy's skirt sticking out their tongue letting me know that I have violated the rules and he is going to tell on me and get me banned.........whatever...I stand behind my original post on this topic

I have edited my 2nd post ....the opening paragraph in it was mine...what followed was a PM that I received from about my oringal post ......hope that clears it up

Please anyone don't don't state your opinion based on your career as a Police officer and actual application of the law based on the teaching of government agencies....NREMT-basic's experince doing ride outs, security work and his dads work with the a police department make him more of an authorty that you....I recieved the following PM .... POSTING OF PM'S YOU RECEIVED IS NOT ALLOWED. REMOVED - ADMIN

What seems to be missed/understood with the Tazer is where it falls into the Use of Force wheel (as it is referred to in Ontario)....In Ontario the Tazer can be deployed far before buddy makes a fist to start swinging...when a subject is actively resistant - uses muscle strength to attempt to defeat my lawful duties...ie hold something when directed to leave.....zap zap...the use of force wheel would also at this point alow me to deliver a series of distraction strikes which can vary from a punch, kick, elbow or knee strike pepper spray...what little disorientation that may remain after a Tazer hit is far less than the disorientation / pain that will remain from and a fist or elbow to the nose....the loss of bowel or urination is something that happens in policing when people are scared...foot chases...fights with police....warrants...etc As I understand it......In the UCLA video (which made my blood boil) the agent of the property (security) found the subject in non compliance and asked him to leave....the subject failed to leave when directed ........the agent of the property called the Police ......the Police are then requested(impowered) to intervene on behalf of the agent...."let's go buddy time to leave"....subject refuses lawful order by Police...now arrestable for "fail to leave when directed, Trespass to Property Act"...the subject refuses to walk ...the Police then have the power to drag his stupid ass out.....grabbing walls, holding tables or chairs, locking arms under body when directed to put them behind your back are actively resistant....the officers must have told him to walk...how many times....20 plus....the situation then goes into a resist arrest situation possibly...those never go well(for the subject) .....all the little street lawyers that gathered about made me wanna puke..."i want your badge number" "you can't do that" thats an abuse of your power""i've taken a law course and my daddy is a lawyer so I know"..... they all came very close to obstruct Police arrest...the old "back up or you will go too" fits really easily.... because you know someone who is a police officer and you have taken some security course doesn't make you a police officer and until you go out and do the job and know all the various powers and authorities available to you .........people will have a hard time understanding all that police do... ... during my career you could have seen me drag a screaming woman to a cruiser cuffed ....and forcibly ram her into the back seat...pretty .....hell know if thats all you saw.....you may have missed the part where we "wrestled" with here for a large knife that she would have gladly stuck through me....and told me so....I was completely justified...and if I had carried a Tazer back then she would have ridden the lightening like Homer on the bomb.... The Tazer is a great piece of kit that will reduce officer and subject injury....period

I can tell you that I would not leave my weapon behind....never heard of such a request ...... a handcuff above the head and one to the side bar .....both in positions to prevent slip up down left or right....secure the ankles (triangular)to the end of the stretcher, and your done. Spitting and flailing does not equal good to go in a cruiser...liability???... by that premise violent diabetics and some seizures and head injuries drug overdoses...excited delirium....may very often not get the care they require..not to mention alot of people will be sued

In no specific order - lack of job diversity- allow medics to be a part of recruiting, training, human resources, specialty teams (bike, CBRN, POU, TAC, Marine, CISM), coach officer, ALS, Public relations....allowing medic to be a part of the specialized training allows for ownership to begin to grow...it re charges career the batteries .... - further to point one ...allowing some of the above will create stronger leadership, leadership that will stand up for the medics and the public that they serve...leaders and Mgt should not just be appointed they should be grown - education training - a commitment to ongoing training, from the new hires and their coach officers to the medics who have been working develop diverse programs with medic input.. -unique identity - push back from the kiddie table, and drive for an EMS identity use what has shown to be successful...take ownerhip in your career...if you want it go and get it ....

During training I have been gassed (CS CN) OC'd and TAZERED and I gota tell ya they all suck.... During the decon from gas and OC i have experienced a brain freeze similar to the jugging a 7-11 Slurpee....the combination of the perceived heat and inflammation generated and the cold decon water hurt initially....similar to cold water immersion....good times...

I have been an Ontario PCP for 10 years and Police officer for 8ish....I am it for TEMS right now on our team.... If I could have my way I would develop a mixed TEMS team...half dedicated Police officers (paramedic certs) and half civilian Paramedic (tactically trained)... The police officer has active working knowlegde of the law, police resourses and policy...the TEMS police officer is able to act as a security element (armed) and clear Tactical members back to the mission... Having local tactically trained medics is a must as they have working knowledge of the local EMS system...their advanced skills are honed on a regular basis on the road and can increase the level of TEMS care AVL on scene.... One of the stumbling blocks that I have seen 1st hand is the $$$$.....the EMS provider saying...." we are here to support the police" therefore...police pay for everything (overtime equipment training)....while Police say...."EMS you by creating a TEMS team are fullfiling your obligation to the community by extending your ability to provide Tx"

Was the above post meant for this thread ....maybe the "Patient Restraint " Thread....

From the Mental Health Act of Ontario...Sec 17 Where a police officer has reasonable and probable grounds to believe that a person is acting or has acted in a disorderly manner and has reasonable cause to believe that the person, (a) has threatened or attempted or is threatening or attempting to cause bodily harm to himself or herself; ( has behaved or is behaving violently towards another person or has caused or is causing another person to fear bodily harm from him or her; or © has shown or is showing a lack of competence to care for himself or herself, and in addition the police officer is of the opinion that the person is apparently suffering from mental disorder of a nature or quality that likely will result in, (d) serious bodily harm to the person; (e) serious bodily harm to another person; or (f) serious physical impairment of the person, and that it would be dangerous to proceed under section 16, the police officer may take the person in custody to an appropriate place for examination by a physician. 2000, c. 9, s. 5. This came change came as a result of a situation in Hamilton...Ontario Police used to have to find some one actually acting...nuts...the change came when police were repeatedly called to a home in Hamilton for an elderly lady that neighbors claimed was acting irrational...when the Police got on scene she always seemed fine and did not fit the criteria for "apprehension"....... this went on for some time till one day thinking that one of the neighbors children was her long deceased son....she killed him...so I am quite comfortable with erring to the side of safety...if the family is credible and they say they are a danger to themselves or others....that's good enough....I would rather err that way ...let the doctor cut them free on the world.... I have been on both sides of the coin.... if I am policing and the Pt is calm ....they will often go by EMS for voluntary assessment.... If there has violent tendencies in the back of the cruiser they go....on my apprehension powers...cuffs will depend on the situation...a 16 year female Pt. may not seem dangerous however...as a male I can;t search her and cuffing her is a safety issue.... crazy has no age limits...myself and 6 ER staff have wrestled with an eight year old that I swear was minutes from his head spinning and pea soup flying everywhere..his ass was in cuffs.... I know that many officers don't go in the back of the ambulance because it is a pain in the ass to be with out their cruiser.....not really a good reason...but that's the truth...the other reason officers will push for EMS transport is that when the patient is there by voluntary admission the police do not have to remain at the hospital until the patient is formally admitted for a 72 hr EVAL ( i have waited eight hours before....average is four hours)....

Medics in the area I work must submit to a yearly criminal background check....the check releases information(whether the medic is on charge / awaiting trial) which the employer is not entitled too under the Ambulance Act of Ontario...the employer is only entitled to conviction information......many medics have a big problem and feel this is an invasion of their privacy.........the other side of the coin is that if a medic were charged with an offence in another area (E.g. narcotics, assault, child porn, sex assault, theft) it may go unknown by the local EMS employer......isn't there some responsibility on Mgr to take some action even if the matter is still before the courts......???? Any thoughts???

I have had the gas, OC'd and Tazered...they all suck....Tazer is great piece of kit....tactical and supervisors only in this neck of the woods...just need a couple big lawsuits where the SGT. was not avl and the the officers shot the dirtbag....."Why oh why wasn't little Joey Tazed"...then presto everyone will have them

GOALS Implementation of an effective TEMS program/unit with the following important goals: 1. Provide rapid EMS response to injured individuals within the Tactical theater 2. Enhance Tactical mission accomplishment by assisting in extrication and taking over medical emergency management, thereby freeing up ETU Team members to return to the primary objective. 3. Facilitate a Professional Partnership between Police / EMS 4. Reduce death, injury, illness, and related effects, among officers, innocents, and suspects of the Region 5. Minimize “Risk Management” of Tactical missions 6. Project a favorable image for the Police and Paramedic Services with the citizens and the media

After years of working EMS and watching the Fire Dept take on more and more EMS duties(minus the college training or Q & A)...last year while on police marine patrol we discovered a grass fire on shore....we call led for the fire dept to attend...when they got there we charged up our fire pump....and went at it....in all honestly we did dick to the fire...but wanna see some long faces....u know that thing where the bottom lip kinda quivers........ahhh good times

Sorry I shall clarify.... my exp. has been typically with some local fire depts that go L/S (e.g. leaves burning on the curb)....some common sense for public safety should kick in there.... all the ambulance services that I have worked for have always had a priority system...we have recently encountered a policy that stated all calls originated by police or fire ONS or in a public place will receive a L/S response ....